¡¡Todavía los pronombres me hacen sufrir!!

[laepelba]

Uyyyy!! I am still struggling with the "le/la/lo" DO and IO pronouns. I know I have asked about this before. And I'm still not getting it......

For the most part, I understand what is the DIFFERENCE between Indirect Objects and Direct Objects. And I know which pronouns to use when it is obvious to me which pronoun is being called for. (For example, it is OBVIOUS to me that "Give it (la carta) to me" would be "Dámela", whereas it also makes sense that "John gave her the present" would be "Juan le dio el regalo".)

But there are many times when I simply can't figure out if I am looking at a direct object or an indirect object. So the other day, my tutor gave me two lists to look at. She is Mexican and is having difficulty telling me how to determine something that just comes so naturally to her. Some restrictions on the conversation: (1) let's only discuss examples with female DO/IO's ... it seems easier for me to understand, and (2) please give me a Latin American perspective, because I am aware that there is this "leismo" that is used in Iberian Spanish and I think it may have led to some of my confusion.... THANKS.

The two lists are as follows:

For example, when speaking about a girl you would say:

"Le pagan"
"Le explican"
"Le escriben una carta"
"Le dan de comer"
"Le dan un regalo"


BUT, you have to say:

"La regañan"
"La besan"
"La ven"
"La ayudan"
"La extrañan"

How would you explain the difference between the two lists? Why are "I pay her" and "I kiss her" different? What other examples could you add?

THANK YOU for trying to help me wrap my brain around this............ !!

[Peter]

A generalization:
An indirect object receives the direct object from the subject
so
try adding a direct object to your example sentences:
Le pagan dinero - dinero is the direct object
Le explican el problema - el problema is the direct object
Le escriben una carta - una carta is the direct object
etc.


Or try making the sentence into a question
What do they give her? - a present

You can't do this if the girl is the direct object:
What do they kiss her?
What do they see her?

I hope this helps. Maybe somebody a little bit more linguistically knowledgeable might improve this a bit (edit: or a lot).

[aleCcowaN]

I pay her (money) ---> Money is paid.

I kiss her ---> She is kissed.

You may say "a kiss was given to her", but a kiss is not really a thing but an handle to name an action.

[Careful with ayudar]

[laepelba]

Okay - I will continue to try to run with that thinking. Thanks to both of you!!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

She is Mexican and is having difficulty telling me how to determine something that just comes so naturally to her.

Without wanting to criticize your tutor, this is why teaching your own language is not that easy.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Why are "I pay her" and "I kiss her" different?

Hey - how could you think they were not different?

"I kiss her" is a clear example of a transitive verb with 'action' moving from the subject to the direct object. Like "I hit her", "I like her" and so on.

But "I pay her" is missing the direct object, because it is shorthand for "I pay ($100?) to her". IF she were the direct object, you would be trafficking people!

Does that help?

[laepelba]

I understand what you are saying about having a tutor. The real goal was the regular conversation with a native speaker. And that is our primary objective. But I am making SO MANY errors with DO's and IO's (and other things) that we tend to discuss the grammar points as well as just having conversation....

You're right, also, about the thinking on DO/IO stuff ... I just wrote a message to my tutor in which I added the following (in italics):

For example, when speaking about a girl you would say:

"Le pagan" ¿Le pagan QUÉ? Dinero....
"Le explican" ¿Le explican QUË? La tarea....
"Le escriben una carta" ¿Le escriben QUÉ? Una carta....
"Le dan de comer" ¿Le dan QUÉ? La cena
"Le dan un regalo" ¿Le day QUÉ? Un regalo.....

BUT, you have to say:

"La regañan" ¿La regañan QUÉ? huh??
"La besan" ETC....
"La ven" ETC....
"La ayudan" ETC....
"La extrañan" ETC....

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I just wrote a message to my tutor in which I added the following (in italics):

That's a good technique - if you can ask yourself ¿Qué? in each sentence, and you come up with an object not mentioned, then the other one is an indirect object. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's a good start.

[JPablo]

"La regañan" ¿A QUIÉN regañan?
"La besan" ¿A QUIÉN besan?
"La ven" ¿A QUIÉN ven?
"La ayudan" ¿A QUIÉN ayudan?
"La extrañan" ¿A QUIÉN extrañan?

When you know what question to ask, you have the answer, whether you are Iberian or Argentinean... or learned your Spanish in Mindanao...

You can have the two questions:

¿A QUIÉN?

¿QUÉ?

I take you can figure which one is for DO and which one for IO...

(Hope that helps...)

[laepelba]

Pablo - the only difficulty I have with that thinking, though, goes back to the question about "I pay her" and "I kiss her".... To me, I could say "¿A quién pago?" y "¿A quién beso?". But one would be "LE pago" and the other "LA beso".......... ??

[aleCcowaN]

¿Qué le pago a quién? It's not either DO or IO.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Lou Ann: Watch out, there is "personal a", which as Alec says, that has nothing to do with it's being a DO or an IO.

[JPablo]

¿Le contesto a Lou Ann?
¿A quién contesto?
Me tengo que pensar la respuesta.
Me la pensaré.

La beso a ella.
Le pago a la camarera.
La cierro, si me lo pides. (La puerta)

Does it help?

(One of my language teachers, to help us getting spelling "rules" cold, used to tell us that the way to really get certainty was "to read a lot, a lot, a lot... and then read some more...")

[caliber1]

(One of my language teachers, to help us getting spelling "rules" cold, used to tell us that the way to really get certainty was "to read a lot, a lot, a lot... and then read some more...")

Uh oh! No me gusta leer pero voy a empezar

Sólo jugando.

He leído todo en este hilo y he aprendido mucho. Gracias a todos y todas.

[JPablo]

Bueno, me alegro de que te lo hayas leído todo... (el hilo)

Ya lo dice la máxima castiza:
El comer y el rascar (y el leer), todo es empezar.

(El paréntesis es mi añadido.)

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

De acuerdo. La práctica hace al maestro.

[laepelba]

Si - y tengo que leer más que leo ahora. Porque voy a viajar todo el verano, mi tutora me dijo que escribir ensayos. Escribir y escribir y escribir y escribir....... Y se los(?) mando a ella por email, y ella los corrije y me los devuelve. Leer y escribir ... mi verano. ¡¡Gracias a todos por las respuestas muy útiles!!

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Sí - y tengo que leer más que leo ahora. Porque voy a viajar todo el verano, mi tutora me dijo que escribiera ensayos. Escribir y escribir y escribir y escribir....... Y que se los (?) mande a ella por email, ...

Just a couple of corrections.

[laepelba]

¡Gracias, Rusty!

[aleCcowaN]

"y se los mando ..." is OK. It's an informal account of some set of instructions. There, present indicative means a decision was made or an agreement was reached.

[laepelba]

I understand both ways - with the subjunctive because it connects (parallel to) to the previous sentence where the subjunctive is also used. I originally wrote "se los mando" because we've already started the essay-writing project, so it is something that is currently on-going. I think that I am currently working on essay #5.