Spanish Erre (R)

[CrOtALiTo]

I think, you must pronounce T, tee. I know that it could to be hardly difficult for you pronounce, but anyhow you can try it.

[baraklevy]

I know how to pronounce the T, but I'm not sure if there's any different between the T in "better" and the T in "Top" (Just an example).

[Rusty]

There is a large difference in the American English pronunciation of the initial t in top and the intervocal t in better.
The exact same difference can be heard when saying tap water. The initial t in tap is not pronounced at all like the intervocal t in water. The latter t is pronounced exactly like the 'clipped r' sound in Spanish. Until you hear these two words spoken together in normal conversation between speakers of American English, you will not be able to mimic the sound.

[poli]

Your choice of well is correct. Sometimes people the two t's in the word
better as dd instead of tt. Both are OK. When it's pronounced as tt it sounds more British.

[ZeroTX]

My Chilean friend explained to me once about the proper pronunciation of the r and rr in Spanish that was never explained in any book. Note: my friend is a linguist, not just an average speaker....

in Spanish....
a) rr = trilled, always
b) r in a word with a vowel on each side is a short r, not a trilled r. (such as para)
c) any situation where the r is the initial sound, it is trilled, so if you begin a sentence with "Roberto." "Roberto fue al cine," then "Roberto" begins with a trilled r.
d) an r followed by a consonant is trilled, so for instance in Roberto, there are two trilled r's, neither of which is an rr.

It finally made sense when I learned ALL of the rules and then began to listen to native speakers and realized that this is why so many r's are trilled and not just rr's. It's not just r vs. rr. Sometimes r sounds like rr. It depends on where it's located in the word, sentence or phrase. Until I knew these rules, I thought that many Spanish speakers exaggerated their r's as rr's, but now I know that they are following the rules of spoken Spanish. Also note that you have to be very careful to not trill your r's when it's inappropriate. It sounds odd. If you want to err in one direction or the other, then don't trill at all. Native speakers will understand you JUST FINE without the trilled r/rr and in normal speech it doesn't stand out much.

-ZTX

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Now you have the right rules for pronouncing /rr/, you can try practicing this children's recitation:

Erre con erre, cigarro.
Erre con erre, barril.
Rápido corren las ruedas
Del carro del ferrocarril.

[laepelba]

Angelica - what does your saying mean?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by ZeroTX

My Chilean friend explained to me once about the proper pronunciation of the r and rr in Spanish that was never explained in any book. Note: my friend is a linguist, not just an average speaker....

in Spanish....
a) rr = trilled, always
b) r in a word with a vowel on each side is a short r, not a trilled r. (such as para)
c) any situation where the r is the initial sound, it is trilled, so if you begin a sentence with "Roberto." "Roberto fue al cine," then "Roberto" begins with a trilled r.
d) an r followed by a consonant is trilled, so for instance in Roberto, there are two trilled r's, neither of which is an rr.

It finally made sense when I learned ALL of the rules and then began to listen to native speakers and realized that this is why so many r's are trilled and not just rr's. It's not just r vs. rr. Sometimes r sounds like rr. It depends on where it's located in the word, sentence or phrase. Until I knew these rules, I thought that many Spanish speakers exaggerated their r's as rr's, but now I know that they are following the rules of spoken Spanish. Also note that you have to be very careful to not trill your r's when it's inappropriate. It sounds odd. If you want to err in one direction or the other, then don't trill at all. Native speakers will understand you JUST FINE without the trilled r/rr and in normal speech it doesn't stand out much.

-ZTX

I also like to help my Americans friends by leading them to Irish people.

You see, if an American wants to be more proficient at the R "problem", just resort to try to imitate and Irish person, when they say "I am from Ireland" or just the common "me friend" and you'll be on your way to improve your Spanish also. :-)

Hernan.

[Tomisimo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Angelica - what does your saying mean?

Erre con erre, cigarro.
Erre con erre, barril.
Rápido corren las ruedas
Del carro del ferrocarril.

R with R cigarette
R with R barrel
Quickly run the wheels
of the train car.

It's just a rhyme/tongue twister to practice rolling your Rs.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Thank you, Tomisimo!

Young children learn it in kindergarten, along with songs, tales, etc... children games are very useful when you're learning a foreign language, because in the end they also are made to build a relationship between the child and its language.

[Tomisimo]

Here's another one--- this time it's for remembering which words are spelled with LL instead of Y.

La ballena estaba llena
se comió dos llantas lisas
una olla con un pollo
y el relleno de un sillón

[laepelba]

Thanks for the translation on the cigarette trabalenguas. (Do they really use that with kids!!??) How about the LL one that David just gave us?

[CrOtALiTo]

I think that exist interactive CD's. Where you can learn with the help of a teacher the pronuntiation of the vocals, and words.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@laepelba: you don't want my grandmother to tell you how I drove her crazy reciting things like that.

La ballena estaba llena / The whale was full
se comió dos llantas lisas / it ate two worn tires
una olla con un pollo / a pot with a chicken
y el relleno de un sillón / and the stuffing of an armchair

@Tomisimo: I didn't know that one, but it's very nice.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

Thank you, Tomisimo!

Young children learn it in kindergarten, along with songs, tales, etc... children games are very useful when you're learning a foreign language, because in the end they also are made to build a relationship between the child and its language.

When I arrived in the US, a week or two later I noticed books aimed to children in the supermarket. A special area in one of the aisles. I bought several of them. Several word puzzle for 2nd to 3rd graders and one that showed and named animals and their babies.

Not many Hispanic foreigners know right away, what mare is. Or not many English speakers know what "osezno" means.

I found it invaluable in trying to translate my language (good or bad) to English. :-)


Hernan

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I must be getting old... when I read your post my first thought was "and younger Spanish speakers don't know what "osezno" is either"... ;D

But you are right... didactic material for children are great tools for learning.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I must be getting old... when I read your post my first thought was "and younger Spanish speakers don't know what "osezno" is either"... ;D

But you are right... didactic material for children are great tools for learning.

So, Hernan & Angelica - where/what/how would be a good place to start with such learning. I tried downloading some children's stories in Spanish as podcasts, but can't follow the listening very well (at this point in my español anyway). I guess I'm not ready yet.

BUT ... I am definitely an advocate of revisiting the children's classics - even in your own native language. I try to read a children's classic every once in a while (because I DIDN'T do so when I was a child) - and am always SO glad that I've done so....

Any recommendations are always greatly appreciated!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I must be getting old... when I read your post my first thought was "and younger Spanish speakers don't know what "osezno" is either"... ;D

As you can see, my spanish accent bleeds through my writing. :-)

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

But you are right... didactic material for children are great tools for learning.

Nowadays I cannot find any of that in the Supermarkets, lots of coloring and "activities" book (more coloring) and that's it.


Hernan.

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, Hernan & Angelica - where/what/how would be a good place to start with such learning. I tried downloading some children's stories in Spanish as podcasts, but can't follow the listening very well (at this point in my español anyway). I guess I'm not ready yet.

I am going to check the Internet and tell you. However, I would try tools like word puzzles, like I did, it makes you look in the dictionary. You know you have to bleed, right?

Originally Posted by laepelba

BUT ... I am definitely an advocate of revisiting the children's classics - even in your own native language. I try to read a children's classic every once in a while (because I DIDN'T do so when I was a child) - and am always SO glad that I've done so....

Any recommendations are always greatly appreciated!

In the case of children's classics, or adult for that matter, try in Spanish, one that you already read and loved the most.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

In the case of children's classics, or adult for that matter, try in Spanish, one that you already read and loved the most.

OOOOooooh!! You just gave me a GREAT idea!! I should try to find the Harry Potter books in Spanish!! I would LOVE to read them en español.

Actually - I am already working on reading parts of the Bible in Spanish, and it has been quite a rewarding experience.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by chileno

As you can see, my spanish accent bleeds through my writing. :-)

Oh, no... I don't think there was anything wrong with what you wrote... I meant that my first idea was that of an elder: "new generations aren't as educated as were their ancestors".


@laepelba: it will be a bit more expensive than the supermarket items, but a big library certainly will have some children books in Spanish. When I was in New York City, I visited a couple of Barnes & Noble and Strand libraries, and saw they had huge sections of Hispanic books. And if you like Harry Potter, you will find the Spanish translations quite easy to follow.