Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Honestly, you would never wear a red and yellow shirt? Why is that?

I'm living among nationalisms and I can tell you that it's not a good thing (although I don't defend globalization, of course), and I don't like any kind of nationalism (the only point that I accept is the "due obedience" to the country where I'm living in, follow the laws and the costumes, that's all), and History has shown us that an excess in nationalism is not a good thing. It is said that the point of greatest virtue lies in the middle (en el punto medio está la virtud). Wearing external signs of nationalism is a way of showing an excess of it, a way of imposing your viewpoint over that of others (I know that it's not by force, but you wear those signals to let the others know, and you can even disturb or irritate them).

I think I can say or write what I think, because words explain better one's thoughts than a T-shirt, or even I can wear a T-shirt with a wolf or a tree, since I love nature and my feelings don't hurt anybody. But I will never wear one with the colours of a flag, since the street is not a place to express my feelings or my opinions about something. Furthermore (and without pretending hurt the other's feelings), I think that a T-shirt red and yellow is bad-taste (una horterada, en mi país).

No, tampoco en los juegos olímpicos y esas cosas, porque como no me gustan los deportes, no es algo que me interese demasiado.

Creo que los colegios están para enseñar, no para educar, para eso están los padres; los colegios deberían impedir muchos signos externos. Como decimos aquí; no hay que mezclar el tocino con la velocidad.

[poli]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I'm living among nationalisms and I can tell you that it's not a good thing (although I don't defend globalization, of course), and I don't like any kind of nationalism (the only point that I accept is the "due obedience" to the country where I'm living in, follow the laws and the costumes, that's all), and History has shown us that an excess in nationalism is not a good thing. It is said that the point of greatest virtue lies in the middle (en el punto medio está la virtud). Wearing external signs of nationalism is a way of showing an excess of it, a way of imposing your viewpoint over that of others (I know that it's not by force, but you wear those signals to let the others know, and you can even disturb or irritate them).

I think I can say or write what I think, because words explain better one's thoughts than a T-shirt, or even I can wear a T-shirt with a wolf or a tree, since I love nature and my feelings don't hurt anybody. But I will never wear one with the colours of a flag, since the street is not a place to express my feelings or my opinions about something. Furthermore (and without pretending hurt the other's feelings), I think that a T-shirt red and yellow is bad-taste (una horterada, en mi país).

De acuerdo ruego que lea lo escribí en el post antes de la tuya.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by poli

De acuerdo ruego que lea lo escribí en el post antes de la tuya.

Bueno, lo he editado porque nos hemos cruzado (ambas veces)

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by Jessica

they just wore American t-shirts on Cinco de mayo, and they get kicked out for that?



But it doesn't matter they got kicked out from being patriotic. I live in the same country as them.

Well maybe you're right

Don't worry for my comment.

[ookami]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I'm living among nationalisms and I can tell you that it's not a good thing (although I don't defend globalization, of course), and I don't like any kind of nationalism (the only point that I accept is the "due obedience" to the country where I'm living in, follow the laws and the costumes, that's all), and History has shown us that an excess in nationalism is not a good thing. It is said that the point of greatest virtue lies in the middle (en el punto medio está la virtud). Wearing external signs of nationalism is a way of showing an excess of it, a way of imposing your viewpoint over that of others (I know that it's not by force, but you wear those signals to let the others know, and you can even disturb or irritate them).

I think I can say or write what I think, because words explain better one's thoughts than a T-shirt, or even I can wear a T-shirt with a wolf or a tree, since I love nature and my feelings don't hurt anybody. But I will never wear one with the colours of a flag, since the street is not a place to express my feelings or my opinions about something. Furthermore (and without pretending hurt the other's feelings), I think that a T-shirt red and yellow is bad-taste (una horterada, en mi país).

No, tampoco en los juegos olímpicos y esas cosas, porque como no me gustan los deportes, no es algo que me interese demasiado.

Creo que los colegios están para enseñar, no para educar, para eso están los padres; los colegios deberían impedir muchos signos externos. Como decimos aquí; no hay que mezclar el tocino con la velocidad.

Totalmente de acuerdo (how can I say this on a natural way in English?)
About that last point, that's why I prefer schools with uniforms or "guardapolvos", you have to see how they are dress(and makeup, etc) around here at schools that are "free" on their uniform and stetic manners... if you guess that those kids are going to learn and not to... or..., I'll start bealiving in magic.

"Todos los educadores son absolutamente dogmáticos y autoritarios. No puede existir la educación libre, porque si dejáis a un niño libre no le educaréis." Chesterton

[Jessica]

I wouldn't want to go to a school where you have to wear an uniform. no way

[poli]

Originally Posted by ookami

Totalmente de acuerdo (how can I say this on a natural way in English?)You would say: I am in total agreement with you.
About that last point, that's why I prefer schools with uniforms or "guardapolvos", you have to see how they are dress(and makeup, etc) around here at schools that are "free" on their uniform and stetic manners... if you guess that those kids are going to learn and not to... or..., I'll start bealiving in magic.

"Todos los educadores son absolutamente dogmáticos y autoritarios. No puede existir la educación libre, porque si dejáis a un niño libre no le educaréis." Chesterton

-------------------------------
Those kids were pushng the limits of school rules and have to pay the
consequences.

[laepelba]

Irmamar - thank you for explaining yourself. Your views make sense to me ... although I am not so absolute as you, because I don't mind wearing red, white & blue when I'm in the US ... I would NEVER wear those colors or even some small symbol of the US flag when I travel abroad.

Jessica - you didn't answer my question about extra knowledge of the situation than what has been reported in the news?

There has been lots of research done on the effectiveness of uniforms in public schools here in the US. I have to say that, for my school, it might be a good thing for several reasons. First of all, many of our students don't know how to dress in a way that is appropriate (meaning there are students who ALWAYS dress in sexually provocative ways). We also have some problems at my school with students who wear gang symbols. In this kind of neighborhood, a uniform might serve a purpose to keep students in appropriate clothes (non-distracting) and that don't incite potentially violent situations (like these flag shirts may have done...). In schools where there is a great dichotomy between wealthy and poor students, a uniform might also serve to level the playing field, so to speak, so that there isn't so much competition about who can spend the most on a pair of shoes or designer clothes, etc.

A school uniform can be as simple as "a white collared shirt and long khaki pants".....

[ookami]

Thanks poli

Yes laepelba, well explained, that was what I mean. Or at least maybe a "guardapolvo" (overall in English I think) could work. The makeup thing is another huge point, I have seen some girls that seemed to be ready to go to a party, well, not going to far, my sister spends 30 minutes all mornings to dress and make up before going to school (and she wear uniform)

Jessica, why you wouldn't want to go to a scholl with uniform? if you don't explain your opinions its almost as if you haven't posted.

[poli]

Originally Posted by ookami

My question is,does Galli wear wear American flags and bandanas every day and not just Cinco de Mayo?

For me it seems wrong to need to prove that you're the dominating one when others are celebrating their ethnic holiday. To me, a little respect that is not that hard to show.
This time it was just a kid, but blind nationalism is dangerous. But obviously, if I'm leadering a country to war,nationalism (or better yet jingoism it's very useful. I'll win for sure with more people like Galli!

Now, putting all of this aside, for me, all kinds of "pride" that is external to our own actions(or inmediate society actions, that is influence by ours), is stupid. It's just trying to find something to feel identificated with, to escape (generally). And even this pride of our own accomplishments is worth nothing. It's brittle and can be broken like glass. The other day a friend told me he is proud of continuing to fight, another day, a friend told me he is proud to be alive. Another. is proud if his perseverence. That's, for me, something that maybe you could call pride.
But yes, nationalism is necessary for a society to survive. Without Gallis this would be difficult. Gallis are made, we are alway trying to convert outselves into proverbial Gallis,. I'm proud of fighting this battle every day! (obviously, a child that is conditioned to socialize, cannot expect to be anything but a Galli, but it can destroy that ache ilusion after that primary socialization)

"El orgullo engendra al tirano. El orgullo, cuando inútilmente ha llegado a acumular imprudencias y excesos, remontándose sobre el más alto pináculo, se precipita en un abismo de males, del que no hay posibilidad de salir"

"El hombre sólo pretende pretextos para vivir, es decir, elaborar una imagen de su orgullo."

"Qué orgullo descubrir que nada te pertenece: qué revelación. "
Nothing, even that beautiful land you love underneath your feets.

Es más estupidez que orgullo en este caso. El Cinco de Mayo es una buena razón para salir a tomar unas copas nada más.En EE UU es una fiesta más o menos elaborado por distilerias.
Es orgullo nacional que prohibe llevar banderas americanas en las escuelas. De hecho para muchos llevar la bandera como ropa muestra desrepeto para un símbolo del pais.

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by ookami

Thanks poli

Yes laepelba, well explained, that was what I mean. Or at least maybe a "guardapolvo" (overall in English I think) could work. The makeup thing is another huge point, I have seen some girls that seemed to be ready to go to a party, well, not going to far, my sister spends 30 minutes all mornings to dress and make up before going to school (and she wear uniform)

Jessica, why you wouldn't want to go to a scholl with uniform? if you don't explain your opinions its almost as if you haven't posted.

why would I want to wear the same clothes as every one else? I would want to wear unique clothes from other people, not the same

[poli]

A uniform requiement can be a reaction against students abusing their freedom. I wouldn't like this type of dress code either, but I understand the logic of why some people think it's a good idea. For instance, it's easier for poorer families whose children feel the need to conform to others by demanding expensive sneakers that their peers wear. A uniform requirement may discourage gangs forming in schools. A lot of kids form clics by wearing similar clothing, and often these clics categorize students in a negative way.

Although I think individual expression outweighs the need for uniforms, I certainly understand the argument in favor of uniforms.

[Jessica]

yes I understand the benefits but personally I would not want an uniform requirement

[irmamar]

I don't like uniforms either, they are so ugly! If they were more modern clothes, I wouldn't mind. Here there are hardly schools with uniform, most of them don't use it. But I'll never understand why girls must use skirts. It's very cold in winter here, and you can see little girls with that cold skird, while boys can wear long trousers. Uniform should be something modern, not that horrible thing :

[Jessica]

agreed

I mean, there are tomboys that wear boyish clothes and they would hate to wear something like a skirt

[irmamar]

I don't know if I am tomboy , but I always wear trousers, maybe I think I wore enough skirts, horrible skirts from a uniform, until I was fourteen. That was a liberation the day I throw that hideous garment away

[laepelba]

Many of the public schools around here that use uniforms only require certain kinds/colors of clothes - for example, they might specify a white collared shirt and long khaki pants and non-sneaker shoes. For girls and boys. And teachers. It's not supposed to be "fun" or "enjoyable". It IS supposed to level the playing field.......

[chileno]

Originally Posted by poli

A uniform requiement can be a reaction against students abusing their freedom. I wouldn't like this type of dress code either, but I understand the logic of why some people think it's a good idea. For instance, it's easier for poorer families whose children feel the need to conform to others by demanding expensive sneakers that their peers wear. A uniform requirement may discourage gangs forming in schools. A lot of kids form clics by wearing similar clothing, and often these clics categorize students in a negative way.

Although I think individual expression outweighs the need for uniforms, I certainly understand the argument in favor of uniforms.

That's right. It uniforms the economic situation. It also helps on the discipline side of it. You have to obey rules.

This discussion started because an order was not obeyed. Had it been obeyed and then opposed by discussion etc. it would have been more civilized.

The idea that people is free, it is something to ponder.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

This discussion started because an order was not obeyed. Had it been obeyed and then opposed by discussion etc. it would have been more civilized.

What order being disobeyed are you talking about? The admin asking the boys to remove the bandanas and reverse the tee shirts? Or was there a directive given prior to that day?

I still say that there is so much more to this story than any of us knows.....

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

What order being disobeyed are you talking about? The admin asking the boys to remove the bandanas and reverse the tee shirts? Or was there a directive given prior to that day?

I still say that there is so much more to this story than any of us knows.....

Correct. That order could've been argued later by the parents.