A market for lemons

[JPablo]

Anyone have a clue were the expression "market for lemons" comes from?

(It can be found explained here,
a ''market for lemons'' - one in which the seller knows much more than the buyer about the product, and takes advantage of this fact.

http://www.rightsandwrongs.co.uk/asi...et-for-lemonsq

Oh, while writing my post I checked the origin as it can be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

My question here is (regarding cars) "cherries" and "lemons", do they have an equivalent in Spanish?
[from Wikipedia - There are good used cars ("cherries") and defective used cars ("lemons")...]

I.e., if you say "mercado para limones" in Spanish I don't think anyone would understand what you mean, unless you go into a lengthy explanation... (Or is this something that also happens in English?)

Any bright ideas on how to express this in Spanish?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Todas las personas a las que les pregunté, me respondieron: "pues en inglés se llaman lemons, ¿no?"

Lo otro que se les ocurrió fue una expresión salvajemente coloquial y local: "coche balín".
("Balín" se usa para algo falso o defectuoso.)


Así que lamento no poder encontrar una expresión más ad hoc... aunque mis amigos y yo acabamos de acuerdo en los términos más neutrales: "autos/coches/carros buenos" = cherries y "autos/coches/carros defectuosos" = lemons

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by JPablo

I.e., if you say "mercado para limones" in Spanish I don't think anyone would understand what you mean, unless you go into a lengthy explanation... (Or is this something that also happens in English?)

Creo que también pasa en inglés. Yo no he entendido de qué se trata hasta leer tu posteo. COCA contiene sólo 2 referencias relevantes ("market" y "lemons" separados por 0-3 palabras y hablando de limones metafóricos), y BNC cero - es más pequeño, pero además me parece que "lemons" con referencia específicamente a coches sea un americanismo. Véase, por ejemplo, esta frase parcial de BNC:

tax-free, has gone to secret investors, and Telecom has been landed with a lemon. The loser on both counts is the Irish taxpayer.

No sé cuál es el "limon", pero parece tratarse de una empresa que Telecom ha comprado.

[JPablo]

Muchas gracias, Pjt33. Bueno es saberlo... ahora, después de que el día se me ha ido volando, me he acordado de la expresión española de "dar gato por liebre" (Engañar haciendo pasar una cosa por otra mejor...)
Y me parece que en 'La vuelta a la Galia por Astérix' les venden un carro estilo romano... que resulta ser 'un limón'.
Supongo que habrá alguna otra expresión española más moderna que la de la liebre, algo como "camelo" "engañifa" creo que funcionaría... aunque me suenan un poquito anticuadas...
(Lo consultaré con la almohada... aunque siempre agradezco todo 'input'...)

[poli]

De verdad nunca he oido la palabra cherry en este contexto. Hablé con una señora del norte de California con quien trabajo y ella me dijo que alli se usa cherry en siguiente contexto: a car in cherry condition. Asi entendí en seguida que es un coche usado pero muy bien mantenido. Por mi parte, puede ser que no hago caso de estes terminos, pero no recuerdo oyéndola antes.

Un limón por un carro que no sirve es un termino muy conocido. De hecho
a lemon se puede usar para describir cualquier aparato que no sirve.

[Perikles]

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definitions for a lemon:

1. An ovate fruit with a pale yellow rind, and an acid juice

2. slang (orig. U.S.) something worthless or distasteful 1863

So it started out in the USA in 1863.

[Elaina]

Originally Posted by Perikles

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definitions for a lemon:

1. An ovate fruit with a pale yellow rind, and an acid juice

2. slang (orig. U.S.) something worthless or distasteful 1863

So it started out in the USA in 1863.

My search yielded the following...

lemon (2) "worthless thing," 1909, Amer.Eng. slang; from lemon (1), perhaps via criminal slang sense of "a person who is a loser, a simpleton," which is perhaps from the notion of someone a sharper can "suck the juice out of." A pool hall hustle was called a lemon game (1908); while to hand someone a lemon was British slang (1906) for "to pass off a sub-standard article as a good one." Or it simply may be a metaphor for something which "leaves a bad taste in one's mouth."
This is quite interesting!

[JPablo]

@Poli, Perikles & Elaina, thank you all very much!
Very interesting viewpoint.
I take in Spain we have a better appreciation of lemons... but as I was writing this I remembered that with my sisters and brothers we had our "aunt and uncle festival" when we were kids, and we used to give the title of "Miss Naranja" to the most nice, pleasant and likable aunt, and "Miss Limón" to the most "unfriendly/unpleasant" aunt...
We have the expression "cara de vinagre" as in "sour look in his/her face"... but not the idea of "worthless thing".
We also have "engañabobos" and "engañapichanga" = con, swindle, swizz... but not quite the idea as in Elaina's definition.
Timo, estafa (con trick, scam; rip-off) are common ways to convey some kind of "fraud"... but the "lemon" expression seems "less severe". I.e., "to pass a lemon" is still a bad practice, but it seems more "covert" and/or more subtle than an outright "con trick". (?)

(I checked the diccionario de argot by Julia Sanmartín Sáez, and under gato, it confirms my perception on "te metieron/dieron/pasaron gato por liebre = you were conned or you were had." 2. dar gato por liebre a alguien. Engañar. Con este refrán se previene para evitar el engaño y que no se dé una cosa mala (el gato) por otra buena (la liebre). * Ten cuidado porque con los coches de segunda mano, te DAN GATO POR LIEBRE.

Interestingly enough, she uses an example with second hand cars... Although "gato" by itself would not necessarily 'translate' back to "lemon", the concept and register seem to match pretty well...

Well, unless any other Spanish native has a better idea for the Spanish side of this coin... I feel my original question has been pretty well elucidated. Thank you all again!