Dichos

[Elaina]

"Dichos" are the same as "refrán",right?

Idiom = modismo ..... which is not the same as a "dicho", right?

So what exactly is an "idiom"? Is it like words that are used in certain parts of the country? Like............ water fountain in the south but bubbler in the north?



Confused Elaina

[Rusty]

Un refrán is a proverb, sometimes called a saying, a byword, or an adage. It is a condensed, but memorable expression that embodies important experience taken as truth by many people.

Un dicho is an idiom, also known as an idiomatic expression, a set phrase, a phrasal idiom, or a phrase. It is an expression whose meaning cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up.

Un modismo is another word for an idiom (un dicho).

Words that are used in a particular area are known as regional words or variants. Your example of bubbler being used in the Northern United States for a drinking fountain is a good example of a regional word (although I have never heard the word used). The same thing happens between the Western United States and the Eastern United States - if you're not from the West, you've probably never heard of a barrow pit, for example.

[Elaina]

Muy interesante Rusty, y si te entiendo correctamente, un dicho es un modismo....pero refrán es un "saying" which goes back to being a dicho which is the same as a refrán........etc. etc. etc.

UGH..........help

Elaina

[Rusty]

That's probably why David didn't create specialized regions in the Idiom Dictionary. All the dichos, sayings, modismos, expressiones, refranes, etc. are grouped together. It's hard to differentiate between them, sometimes.

[Elaina]

Ok.....

1. Más vale pájaro en mano que cientos volando
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

2. Ese hombre tomó vino "hasta por los codos"
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

3. Si miro a una persona cruzar la calle sin fijarse en el tráfico, le grito: ¡Águas! o íÁguila!
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

¿Quién me puede contestar estas preguntas, por favor?

Elaina

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Elaina

Ok.....

1. Más vale pájaro en mano que cientos volando
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

2. Ese hombre tomó vino "hasta por los codos"
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

3. Si miro a una persona cruzar la calle sin fijarse en el tráfico, le grito: ¡Águas! o íÁguila!
(a) refrán (b) dicho (c) modismo

¿Quién me puede contestar estas preguntas, por favor?

Elaina

Mi intento:
1 (a)
2 (b) o (c)
3 ninguno; son interjecciones usadas en México, así que son variantes regionales (términos locales).

[María José]

Now I'm as confused as Elaina. I always thought dicho meant refrán...

[poli]

This is clearly a question of symantics. Incidentally, is "splitting hairs" a refrán o modismo?
On the other hand (would say modismo) because I'm familiar with word refrain which can mean a line of poetry repeated in the poem. It usually rhymes. In music there refrains which are quite similar to poetic ones. So, I think a refrán might be more of a rhyming or rhythmical(I hope I'm spelling this right) saying or dicho.
An example of one in English is "a stitch in time says nine".

How about platitudes? What's your opinion of platitudes?

[Rusty]

Del DRAE:
refrán: acepción 1 - Dicho agudo y sentencioso de uso común.
dicho: acepción 2 - Palabra o conjunto de palabras con que se expresa oralmente un concepto cabal.
modismo: acepción 1 - Expresión fija, privativa de una lengua, cuyo significado no se deduce de las palabras que la forman; p. ej., a troche y moche.

[Marsopa]

Pero bubbler sólo se usa en WI, no en todo el norte del país...

Marsopa

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Marsopa

Pero bubbler sólo se usa en WI, no en todo el norte del país...

Marsopa

Gracias por arrojar luz sobre dónde se dice bubbler. Es porque no conozco Wisconsin que no lo he oido. ¿Habrá otros estados por ahí en los cuales usarían lo mismo?

[poli]

El el área metropolitana de Nueva York ne se usa bubbler

[Tomisimo]

Originally Posted by Marsopa

Pero bubbler sólo se usa en WI, no en todo el norte del país...

Marsopa

No se usa bubbler in Washington, Oregon & California.

[Tomisimo]

The terms refran, dicho, modismo, idiom, saying etc all have some overlap, and at the same time have some different nuances. Here's my opinion:

1. To me the most general terms are frase hecha and dicho which generally mean set phrase or saying. These terms can be applied to any word/phrase/sentence that is known by many people

Example: Sewing machine (not machine for sewing, machine to sew with)

2. The next level for me is refrán, proverbio or dicho (saying, proverb, maxim, adage etc.) These are short, memorable sentences that describe an idea that many people believe to be true, they are a big part of folk culture.

Example: Early to bed early to rise, makes a man healthy wealth and wise.

3. Now on to idioms (modismo, giro idiomático, idiotismo). Specifically, these are words or phrases whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal meaning of its component words.

Example: Knock yourself out! (Literally, this would mean hit yourself so that you lose consciousness, but really means go ahead and do something as much as you want.)

[Elaina]

He escuchado la palabra "bubbler" en Michigan.....

Gracias a todos por tratar de explicar la diferencia. Creo que entiendo un poquito más lo del dicho -vs- refrán -vs- modismo........

Pero no crean, aún estoy un poquitito confundida pero ya no tanto.

Elaina

[Tomisimo]

I think there is a lot of overlap between the terms and they are not mutually exclusive either.

[Elaina]

Thanks David!

For a moment I thought I was being overly "stupid"....

Elaina

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by Gemma

Now I'm as confused as Elaina. I always thought dicho meant refrán...

I agree with you, dicho, refrán and proverbio mean the same.

[Alfonso]

Ya sé que el DRAE dice otra cosa, pero, por ejemplo, del Gran diccionario de sinónimos de Fernando Corripio:

Dicho: concepto, máxima, refrán, sentencia, proverbio, aforismo, fórmula, adagio, apotegma, precepto / chiste, ocurrencia, chanza, broma, agudeza.

No creo que deba tomarse el DRAE, ni ningún otro diccionario, como precepto, sobre todo con palabras de uso tan común (otra cosa son los tecnicismos, cultismos, etc). En este caso, el DRAE no refleja el uso más habitual.

[Elaina]

Me encanta cuando hablas sucio.......

"Gran diccionario de sinónimos de Fernando Corripio"

Elaina