Does "avisar" require subjunctive in the subordinate clause?

[laepelba]

The sentence in my book as follows, and I am to choose indicative vs. subjunctive: Los científicos avisan que los cambios meteorológicos continúan/continúen.

The answer is indicative: continúan

From what I've studied so far, the following types of main clauses require the subjunctive:
1) Deseo o necesidad (como querer, esperar, etc.)
2) Emociones, gustos y preferencias (como alegrarse, sorprenderse, molestarse, temerse, etc.)
3) Influencia (como recomendar, proponer, ordenar, obligar, permitir, prohibir, oponerse, etc.)
4) Duda y posibilidad (como dudar, ser posible, posiblemente, etc.)
5) Certeza, pensamientos y creencias (como no creer, no pensar, etc.)
6) Juicios de valor (como parecerse bueno/malo, ser justo/importante, etc.)

Now, I've bolded #3. To me, avisar seems like a verb of influence. BUT ... is it sometimes used with an indicative subordinate clause and sometimes with a subjunctive subordinate clause?

For example, would the following two sentences be correct?
Indicative: Mi jefe nos avisó que había una reunión esta mañana. (Indicative because he's merely notifying us that there was a meeting this morning.)
Subjunctive: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes sea larga. (Subjunctive because he's warning us that the meeting will be long.)

Is my thinking here correct?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

To me, avisar seems like a verb of influence. BUT ... is it sometimes used with an indicative subordinate clause and sometimes with a subjunctive subordinate clause?

For example, would the following two sentences be correct?
Indicative: Mi jefe nos avisó que había una reunión esta mañana. (Indicative because he's merely notifying us that there was a meeting this morning.)
Subjunctive: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes sea larga. (Subjunctive because he's warning us that the meeting will be long.)

Is my thinking here correct?

I think you are on the right lines - avisar can mean either notify or warn. My dictionary gives:

¿por qué no me avisaste que venías? - clearly to notify, with indicative

avísame cuando acabes let me know when you've finished. Not so clear, but with a subjunctive, although the verb might not be responsible for that (What I don't understand is why the second use is marked as an intransitive verb )

In your above example, you have the preterite indicative with a present subjunctive - I didn't think that combination was possible.

I'm not much help really....

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

In your above example, you have the preterite indicative with a present subjunctive - I didn't think that combination was possible.

I'm not much help really....<--Sure you are.

What I was trying to say in my second example is that we received an e-mail from our boss (yesterday) that the meeting (which will be held on Monday) may be rather long. So, given that it's my understanding that the future subjunctive really isn't used, but that the future can be perceived from the present subjunctive, I thought that it would work like that. It's how I *think* it ... but I'm not sure about the grammar rules of which tenses in the principal clause can be used with which tenses in the subordinate clause.... How would you go about saying that?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

How would you go about saying that?

Well, I think if a subjunctive, then the imperfect. After all, it is the same in English:

My boss notified us that the meeting would be a long one.

That is a past subjunctive, and is correct even if the meeting is a future event. I don't think Cervantes would have used a future subjunctive if the main verb were preterite.

[laepelba]

I had been thinking "My boss notified us that the meeting will be long." But what you're saying makes sense...

So would you say: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes fuera larga.

So, back to what I was getting at originally ... with "avisar" in the principal clause, the meaning will have to determine the use of indicative or subjunctive in the subordinate clause?

[Perikles]

Sorry, I'll take that back, after having read my grammar book. It is true that there are clear sequences of tenses, but the rules can be broken if the sense demands it. Example given is

Ayer llevé el coche al garaje para que lo reparen

Here, a past action with a present subjunctive, because they haven't mended it yet.

Having said that, I still think the imperfect subjunctive would not be wrong, but we need some expert advice here.

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, back to what I was getting at originally ... with "avisar" in the principal clause, the meaning will have to determine the use of indicative or subjunctive in the subordinate clause?

Yes, I think so, but maybe others will disagree..

[laepelba]

Wait ... so the subjunctive is needed because it's a future event, not because it's "influence"?

So if I changed my first example to my boss notifying us of an upcoming meeting, it would be:
Mi jefe nos avisó que haya una reunión el lunes por la mañana.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The sentence in my book as follows, and I am to choose indicative vs. subjunctive: Los científicos avisan que los cambios meteorológicos continúan/continúen.

The answer is indicative: continúan

From what I've studied so far, the following types of main clauses require the subjunctive:
1) Deseo o necesidad (como querer, esperar, etc.)
2) Emociones, gustos y preferencias (como alegrarse, sorprenderse, molestarse, temerse, etc.)
3) Influencia (como recomendar, proponer, ordenar, obligar, permitir, prohibir, oponerse, etc.)
4) Duda y posibilidad (como dudar, ser posible, posiblemente, etc.)
5) Certeza, pensamientos y creencias (como no creer, no pensar, etc.)
6) Juicios de valor (como parecerse bueno/malo, ser justo/importante, etc.)

Now, I've bolded #3. To me, avisar seems like a verb of influence. BUT ... is it sometimes used with an indicative subordinate clause and sometimes with a subjunctive subordinate clause?

For example, would the following two sentences be correct?
Indicative: Mi jefe nos avisó que había una reunión esta mañana. (Indicative because he's merely notifying us that there was a meeting this morning.)
Subjunctive: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes sea larga. (Subjunctive because he's warning us that the meeting will be long.)

Is my thinking here correct?

I am not sure subjunctive is used....

But these are the combinations that I know.

El jefe nos avisó que habrá/habría esta mañana.

El jefe nos avisó que la reunión del lunes será larga.
El jefe nos avisó que la reunión del lunes sería larga.

Ninguna de esas dos me suenan a subjunctivo, pero así se usan.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

I am not sure subjunctive is used.... <--ever?

But these are the combinations that I know.

El jefe nos avisó que habrá/habría esta mañana.

El jefe nos avisó que la reunión del lunes será larga.
El jefe nos avisó que la reunión del lunes sería larga.

Ninguna de esas dos me suenan a subjunctivo, pero así se usan.

I've also seen the same sentence that Perikles used: avísame cuando acabes - let me know when you've finished. (It's in the WordReference dictionary which draws from Oxford...) What is the difference in the case here that would require the subjunctive, but not in the others you mention here?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Wait ... so the subjunctive is needed because it's a future event, not because it's "influence"?

I think this is the case. I don't think avisar triggers the subjunctive, but a conjunction of time when it relates to the future:

avísame cuando acabes let me know when you've finished.

En cuanto llegue, te llamo por teléfono

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The sentence in my book as follows, and I am to choose indicative vs. subjunctive: Los científicos avisan que los cambios meteorológicos continúan/continúen.

The answer is indicative: continúan

Los científicos avisan la cosa avisada (whatever it is)

The scientists happen to be the bare agent that informs or warns about something.

Los científicos avisan que el cambio climático continúa.
Los auditores avisan que inspeccionarán los libros.
Juanito avisó que venía, pero no apareció.

Originally Posted by laepelba

From what I've studied so far, the following types of main clauses require the subjunctive:
1) Deseo o necesidad (como querer, esperar, etc.)
2) Emociones, gustos y preferencias (como alegrarse, sorprenderse, molestarse, temerse, etc.)
3) Influencia (como recomendar, proponer, ordenar, obligar, permitir, prohibir, oponerse, etc.)
4) Duda y posibilidad (como dudar, ser posible, posiblemente, etc.)
5) Certeza, pensamientos y creencias (como no creer, no pensar, etc.)
6) Juicios de valor (como parecerse bueno/malo, ser justo/importante, etc.)

Now, I've bolded #3. To me, avisar seems like a verb of influence. BUT ... is it sometimes used with an indicative subordinate clause and sometimes with a subjunctive subordinate clause?

For example, would the following two sentences be correct?
Indicative: Mi jefe nos avisó que había una reunión esta mañana. (Indicative because he's merely notifying us that there was a meeting this morning.)
Subjunctive: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes sea larga. (Subjunctive because he's warning us that the meeting will be long.)

Is my thinking here correct?

0) Los científicos avisan que el cambio climático continúa. Y como resultado yo estoy avisado de ello.
1) Los científicos quieren que se haga algo al respecto. Yo no lo quiero.
2) A los científicos les sorprende que se hable mucho del tema. A mí no me sorprende.
3) Los científicos recomiendan que hagamos algo al respecto. Yo no lo recomiendo.
4) Los científicos no están seguros de que ocurra. Yo sí lo estoy.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by chileno
I am not sure subjunctive is used.... <--ever?

But these are the combinations that I know.

Relating to the specific example given by you. Of course there are more permutations of different tenses and modes, I suppose.

Originally Posted by laepelba

I've also seen the same sentence that Perikles used: avísame cuando acabes - let me know when you've finished. (It's in the WordReference dictionary which draws from Oxford...) What is the difference in the case here that would require the subjunctive, but not in the others you mention here?

avísame cuando acabes - let me know when you finish

let me know when you've finished - avísame cuando hayas acabado.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

avísame cuando acabes - let me know when you finish

let me know when you've finished - avísame cuando hayas acabado.

Yes, but as I said above, the subjunctive is there not because of avisar, but because of cuando relating to the future. Can someone confirm this?

[aleCcowaN]

Don't forget "avísame" is imperative.

Avísame cuando hayas terminado.
Me avisó cuando terminó (Me avisó cuando hubo terminado)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Don't forget "avísame" is imperative.

Avísame cuando hayas terminado.
Me avisó cuando terminó (Me avisó cuando hubo terminado)

Yes, but this has no bearing on the mood of the following verb, other than it is a present tense indicating something is to follow in the future.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Yes, but as I said above, the subjunctive is there not because of avisar, but because of cuando relating to the future. Can someone confirm this?

Of course it is because of "cuando" situated in the future.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Subjunctive: Mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión de lunes sea larga. (Subjunctive because he's warning us that the meeting will be long.)

Is my thinking here correct?

That "sea" produces a crash in understanding (it's completely "agramatical") and forces to change the meaning of "avisó" (some kind of command is suspected there) in order to make sense. The correct term "será" would not be the most probable first choice of a native speaker to amend the sentence (it would in forum threads like this one). This tells us how both main and subordinated clause are preprocessed at once, including the mood, even before they are translated into words. That's very hard to catch and don't worry, such "agramatical" outcomes are very common -and welcome- when students are exploring the subjunctive.

In "mi jefe nos avisó que la reunión del lunes será larga" there is an informer and there is a piece of information. Both coordinate to cast a message, both clauses use indicative and "que" is used as conjunction. You may find subjunctive in nested clauses owing to reasons within the clause ("Mi jefe nos avisó que no creía que Paco fuera responsable").

Other conjunctions -and other mental processes- may require subjunctive. That is the case with "cuando", that makes an "adverbial clause" that synchronizes an action with some anticipated situation:

Avísame cuando termines. Me avisas cuando termines.
Avísame cuando terminas. Me avisas cuando terminas.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Other conjunctions -and other mental processes- may require subjunctive. That is the case with "cuando", that makes an "adverbial clause" that synchronizes an action with some anticipated situation:

Avísame cuando termines. Me avisas cuando termines.
Avísame cuando terminas. Me avisas cuando terminas.

First of all, I am honored that your first three posts at Tomisimo are in this thread. Thank you for your attention to this subject. I'd love to invite you to introduce yourself here (there's a special forum for introductions!) Second, just so you know what some of these other members know ... I just returned home from a month spent studying Spanish at la Universidad de Belgrano in Buenos Aires. They took me as far as the subjunctive, but it was a very brief start into that topic, and I am now attempting to continue on my own.... with the wonderful help of the folks here. Thank you for joining in the process! I'm so happy to have another Argentine helping me along!

Now, on to the question at hand. I am following what you say with about 80% clarity.... I don't know that I have many specific questions to help me ... just need to keep working with it and asking questions as I work out sentences/clauses and different moods.

The one thing I will ask about your previous post is this: in your last two sentences I see the grammatical difference, but is there a difference in meaning? Or is that beyond me now? (Feel free to tell me to wait until I've learned a bit more subjunctive to come back to it........)

Thanks!

[aleCcowaN]

Thank you for the welcome message

Originally Posted by laepelba

The one thing I will ask about your previous post is this: in your last two sentences I see the grammatical difference, but is there a difference in meaning? Or is that beyond me now? (Feel free to tell me to wait until I've learned a bit more subjunctive to come back to it........)

I don't think it is beyond, but it's just not the moment, though, as a matter of record and for future use:

"cuando termines" ---> an event --> it'll happen some undetermined time in the future

"cuando terminas" ---> it looks like something happening periodically ... or maybe a rule.

A good approach for learning subjunctive in the beginning has to do with two groups of things. Some things are asymmetrical, like commands and beliefs, and subjunctive implies that something is "not done" or "it doesn't exist" :

¡Ve! ¡No vayas! (=¡ve!)
Creo que tiene. No creo que tenga.("que tiene" doesn't exist inside my mind ---> tiene)

The other group includes all the symmetrical things, like subordinate clauses, where subjunctive implies that something is "not doing" or that an action is subdued just because it is subordinated to other clause that is "doing" or "being":

Default:
Me preocupa que te pierdas (Me preocupa eso ---> subordinada sustantiva)
Quiero una caja que tenga el color del tomate (Quiero una caja roja ---> subordinada adjetiva)
Puedes quedarte mientras te portes bien (Puedes quedarte con esta condición ---> subordinada adverbial)

But we liven it up to convey other meanings (liven up ---> it is doing ---> indicative):
Me preocupa que te pierdes (Me preocupa eso -"eso" happens frequently-)
Quiero una caja que tiene el color del tomate (Quiero una caja roja -specific, "that box" not any box)

You're probably aware about this, but I think that analyzing the symmetry, bulk processing of information, and knowing the default case are all key points.

[laepelba]

Okay - again thanks, and again, I'm at about 80%. I don't really "get" the examples after "let's liven it up..." ... but that's okay - I'm going to save this and come back to it after a bit more study of the subjunctive. I appreciate your input!!!