Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 14-10)

[laepelba]

I am continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

This exercise is from one of several chapters on the subjunctive and asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. Most of my questions this time are about the use of the subjunctive.

I want to ask a couple of questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.




My Questions:
(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
(2) Does this need to be "mi", or does "el" work?
(3) Are "sueldo" and "cheque" interchangeable here?
(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
(6) NOTE: the word bank given with this exercise used "investir" for "to invest" instead of "invertir". A Peruvian friend and I agree that this is an error in the book. Correct?
(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
(8) Why not subjunctive here? It's something that may or may not happen...

As always, thank you so much for any help you are able to offer me.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I am continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

This exercise is from one of several chapters on the subjunctive and asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. Most of my questions this time are about the use of the subjunctive.

I want to ask a couple of questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.


My Questions:
(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.

(2) Does this need to be "mi", or does "el" work?
Yes, you can use "el"

(3) Are "sueldo" and "cheque" interchangeable here?
Yes

(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4

(6) NOTE: the word bank given with this exercise used "investir" for "to invest" instead of "invertir". A Peruvian friend and I agree that this is an error in the book. Correct?
Right.

(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK

(8) Why not subjunctive here? It's something that may or may not happen...
Right subjunctive it is also OK

As always, thank you so much for any help you are able to offer me.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.
I don't understand what you wrote here. Will someone please explain this to me in English? Thank you.

(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.
The book hasn't presented that form ("debiera") yet, so it's definitely not what they were looking for. Is it subjunctive? Why doesn't "deba" work? I don't understand why it's not the subjunctive if it's a suggestion...

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4
Same question as above...

(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK
Again, I've never seen "bajara" (only "bajará", but I don't think that's what you mean...). The book has only taught the present subjunctive, so my question is still the same as #4 - why can't subjunctive be used here?

Thanks, Chileno.

[JPablo]

I just glanced here, and while overall I agree with Chileno, I have some points of clarification that I believe are in order.

(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.

While "pronto" seems fine, "temprano" has a more restricted usage:
temprano = early; tengo que levantarme temprano = I have to get up early; llegó por la mañana temprano = she arrived early in the morning; anoche me acosté tempranito = I went to bed nice and early last night; todavía es temprano para saberlo = it’s still too early to know; la Pascua cae temprano este año = Easter falls o is early this year

(2) Does this need to be "mi", or does "el" work?
Yes, you can use "el"
Agree.
(3) Are "sueldo" and "cheque" interchangeable here?
Yes
Agree.
(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.
I would go with “debería” as the most common thing. As something I should do. The “debo” comes to me more like a “must”, like “I must save...” although it is something not existing in the physical universe, it comes across to me more than a suggestion, like a an almost imperative command... (If I write my “daily battle plan” with the things I want to accomplish today, I don’t go into a “subjunctive” hypothetical mode, but rather on one of certainty. Or if you go to the grocery story to buy specific things... yes, you could go and write: “I’d like to get probably, oranges, perhaps turnips... oh if I added some whole-wheat organic bread...” (No, no, no, no subjunctive here, you want a direct, “categorical” ‘style’...) Get oranges, lemons, turnips, ground beef... etc.

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4
Ditto, but nothing to do with “creer” or no “creer”. She “believes” but what she believes, she believes it as a fact (from her viewpoint.)
(6) NOTE: the word bank given with this exercise used "investir" for "to invest" instead of "invertir". A Peruvian friend and I agree that this is an error in the book. Correct?
Right.
Agree.
(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK
Agree. (You cannot use correctly “baje” or “pierda” in this construction with “if” [si]
(8) Why not subjunctive here? It's something that may or may not happen...
Right subjunctive it is also OK
Agree, but not totally. I.e., it is true you can use subjunctive. But it is a fact that “luck does not come my way too often”.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Thanks, Chileno.

You're welcome.

1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.
I don't understand what you wrote here. Will someone please explain this to me in English? Thank you.

Translation: Yes. If you want to say that you want to retire early, but is not that soon or in the near future.

Now that I re-read it I would tell you that "in the near future" should be struck out, although it could be used only it could be used in certain contexts.

I agree with JPablo about the rest of the corrections.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

I just glanced here, and while overall I agree with Chileno, I have some points of clarification that I believe are in order.

(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.
While "pronto" seems fine, "temprano" has a more restricted usage:
temprano = early; tengo que levantarme temprano = I have to get up early; llegó por la mañana temprano = she arrived early in the morning; anoche me acosté tempranito = I went to bed nice and early last night; todavía es temprano para saberlo = it’s still too early to know; la Pascua cae temprano este año = Easter falls o is early this year

Um, so I'm not seeing the difference between "temprano" and "pronto" in this context...... Does either word work? What is the different sense when one or the other is used?

(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.
I would go with “debería” as the most common thing. As something I should do. The “debo” comes to me more like a “must”, like “I must save...” although it is something not existing in the physical universe, it comes across to me more than a suggestion, like a an almost imperative command... (If I write my “daily battle plan” with the things I want to accomplish today, I don’t go into a “subjunctive” hypothetical mode, but rather on one of certainty. Or if you go to the grocery story to buy specific things... yes, you could go and write: “I’d like to get probably, oranges, perhaps turnips... oh if I added some whole-wheat organic bread...” (No, no, no, no subjunctive here, you want a direct, “categorical” ‘style’...) Get oranges, lemons, turnips, ground beef... etc.

Huh? Okay, now I'm more confused. Conditional? That's still not subjunctive, though, right? Then when are suggestions used with subjunctive vs. when are they NOT used with the subjunctive? I thought that suggestions were always linked to the subjunctive...............

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4
Ditto, but nothing to do with “creer” or no “creer”. She “believes” but what she believes, she believes it as a fact (from her viewpoint.)
Again, I was taught that "no creer que" was ALWAYS followed by the subjunctive. But you're telling me that it's not necessarily?

(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK
Agree. (You cannot use correctly “baje” or “pierda” in this construction with “if” [si]
????? But it's conjecture.... What is the difference between when you use the subjunctive with conjecture and when you don't use the subjunctive with conjecture.........??

(8) Why not subjunctive here? It's something that may or may not happen...
Right subjunctive it is also OK
Agree, but not totally. I.e., it is true you can use subjunctive. But it is a fact that “luck does not come my way too often”.
So, what I wrote could be somewhat correct (grammatically)?

Subjunctive is SO difficult for the concrete brain that only thinks in black and white....................

Originally Posted by chileno

Translation: Yes. If you want to say that you want to retire early, but is not that soon or in the near future. <--Are you saying that "yes, 'temprano' works in this construction if ....."? I would definitely say that 25 years (as quoted) is not too soon or in the near future. So how does "pronto" work at all, then?

Now that I re-read it I would tell you that "in the near future" should be struck out, although it could be used only it could be used in certain contexts. <--Those contexts being the more distant future.......?

Again, thanks to both of you!

[JPablo]

Okay, let's see if I can answer
Vale, a ver si puedo contestar. (I have not answered yet, but I use indicative, not subjunctive, because I trust with strong faith that I can give you a satisfying answer) (Well, if this is "conditional", let's then name it so... but I hope we don't get too tangled...)

(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.
While "pronto" seems fine, "temprano" has a more restricted usage:
temprano = early; tengo que levantarme temprano = I have to get up early; llegó por la mañana temprano = she arrived early in the morning; anoche me acosté tempranito = I went to bed nice and early last night; todavía es temprano para saberlo = it’s still too early to know; la Pascua cae temprano este año = Easter falls o is early this year

Um, so I'm not seeing the difference between "temprano" and "pronto" in this context...... Does either word work? What is the different sense when one or the other is used?
I'd use temprano (as in the examples I gave you above) for something like I have to get up early, but not for a long term life action, such as "retiring". Probably, it is a matter of common collocation, as in
early retirement = jubilación anticipada
to take early retirement = jubilarse anticipadamente
an early death = una muerte prematura
(You would not commonly use "temprana" in these contexts, although it is not strictly 'incorrect'.

(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.
I would go with “debería” as the most common thing. As something I should do. The “debo” comes to me more like a “must”, like “I must save...” although it is something not existing in the physical universe, it comes across to me more than a suggestion, like a an almost imperative command... (If I write my “daily battle plan” with the things I want to accomplish today, I don’t go into a “subjunctive” hypothetical mode, but rather on one of certainty. Or if you go to the grocery story to buy specific things... yes, you could go and write: “I’d like to get probably, oranges, perhaps turnips... oh if I added some whole-wheat organic bread...” (No, no, no, no subjunctive here, you want a direct, “categorical” ‘style’...) Get oranges, lemons, turnips, ground beef... etc.

Huh? Okay, now I'm more confused. Conditional? That's still not subjunctive, though, right? Then when are suggestions used with subjunctive vs. when are they NOT used with the subjunctive? I thought that suggestions were always linked to the subjunctive...............
My take here is that it is more than a "suggestion", it comes across like an imperative 'advice'. I could be polite and say "Yo invertiría el dinero en acciones de Diamond Limited".
Or more commanding, "Te sugiero que inviertas tu dinero en acciones de Diamond Limited." Es una sugerencia, pero es casi una "orden".

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4
Ditto, but nothing to do with “creer” or no “creer”. She “believes” but what she believes, she believes it as a fact (from her viewpoint.)
Again, I was taught that "no creer que" was ALWAYS followed by the subjunctive. But you're telling me that it's not necessarily?
You are right on that, "no creo que sea tan difícil" takes a subjunctive. But you can also assert yourself and use an indicative: "No creo que es tan difícil." (The subjunctive here being more common than the indicative, but don't think it is exclusive.)
(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK
Agree. (You cannot use correctly “baje” or “pierda” in this construction with “if” [si]
????? But it's conjecture.... What is the difference between when you use the subjunctive with conjecture and when you don't use the subjunctive with conjecture.........??
Not totally tracking with your question here.
(8) Why not subjunctive here? It's something that may or may not happen...
Right subjunctive it is also OK
Agree, but not totally. I.e., it is true you can use subjunctive. But it is a fact that “luck does not come my way too often”.
So, what I wrote could be somewhat correct (grammatically)?
Yes, it is grammatically correct. No problem on that.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Okay, let's see if I can answer
Vale, a ver si puedo contestar. (I have not answered yet, but I use indicative, not subjunctive, because I trust with strong faith that I can give you a satisfying answer) (Well, if this is "conditional", let's then name it so... but I hope we don't get too tangled...) <--Thanks - it helps me to discuss different verbs by name of tense/mood...

(1) Does "temprano" work here, or only "pronto"?
Claro que sí. Si quieres indicar que quieres jubilarte antes pero no es tan pronto....o cercano en el tiempo.
While "pronto" seems fine, "temprano" has a more restricted usage:
temprano = early; tengo que levantarme temprano = I have to get up early; llegó por la mañana temprano = she arrived early in the morning; anoche me acosté tempranito = I went to bed nice and early last night; todavía es temprano para saberlo = it’s still too early to know; la Pascua cae temprano este año = Easter falls o is early this year
Um, so I'm not seeing the difference between "temprano" and "pronto" in this context...... Does either word work? What is the different sense when one or the other is used?
I'd use temprano (as in the examples I gave you above) for something like I have to get up early, but not for a long term life action, such as "retiring". Probably, it is a matter of common collocation, as in
early retirement = jubilación anticipada
to take early retirement = jubilarse anticipadamente
an early death = una muerte prematura
(You would not commonly use "temprana" in these contexts, although it is not strictly 'incorrect'.
<--So pronto has more of a feel of a larger scale pending event, sooner rather than later? Temprano is like something that might happen in day-to-day life...? That concept works for me. I always had the sense that "pronto" only meant "soon", as in, going to happen a relatively very short time....

(4) Why not subjunctive here? I thought that when someone makes a suggestion, the dependent clause should be subjunctive....
Use "debiera" but indicative is correct too.
I would go with “debería” as the most common thing. As something I should do. The “debo” comes to me more like a “must”, like “I must save...” although it is something not existing in the physical universe, it comes across to me more than a suggestion, like a an almost imperative command... (If I write my “daily battle plan” with the things I want to accomplish today, I don’t go into a “subjunctive” hypothetical mode, but rather on one of certainty. Or if you go to the grocery story to buy specific things... yes, you could go and write: “I’d like to get probably, oranges, perhaps turnips... oh if I added some whole-wheat organic bread...” (No, no, no, no subjunctive here, you want a direct, “categorical” ‘style’...) Get oranges, lemons, turnips, ground beef... etc.
Huh? Okay, now I'm more confused. Conditional? That's still not subjunctive, though, right? Then when are suggestions used with subjunctive vs. when are they NOT used with the subjunctive? I thought that suggestions were always linked to the subjunctive...............
My take here is that it is more than a "suggestion", it comes across like an imperative 'advice'. I could be polite and say "Yo invertiría el dinero en acciones de Diamond Limited".
Or more commanding, "Te sugiero que inviertas tu dinero en acciones de Diamond Limited." Es una sugerencia, pero es casi una "orden".

<-- So, actually, it's the use of "deber" that makes it more of an imperative than a suggestion. AND, the book's use of the present indicative makes it a more compelling, concrete *thing* than a random *suggestion*... Interesting that in your own example starting with "Te sugiero..." you use the subjunctive in the dependent clause....

(5) Is this indicative (not subjunctive) because it's "creer que" and not "no creer que"?
Same as #4
Ditto, but nothing to do with “creer” or no “creer”. She “believes” but what she believes, she believes it as a fact (from her viewpoint.)
Again, I was taught that "no creer que" was ALWAYS followed by the subjunctive. But you're telling me that it's not necessarily?
You are right on that, "no creo que sea tan difícil" takes a subjunctive. But you can also assert yourself and use an indicative: "No creo que es tan difícil." (The subjunctive here being more common than the indicative, but don't think it is exclusive.)
<-- So in some contexts, the choice between the subjunctive and the indicative allows for a softer (subjunctive) or a more blunt (indicative) statement?

(7) Why not subjunctive here (both verbs)? It's conjecture....
You can use "bajara" and "perdiera" respectively but Indicative is also OK
Agree. (You cannot use correctly “baje” or “pierda” in this construction with “if” [si]
????? But it's conjecture.... What is the difference between when you use the subjunctive with conjecture and when you don't use the subjunctive with conjecture.........??
Not totally tracking with your question here.
<-- See below...

I think we're coming close to running out of colors........... Thanks for putting up with my analyticalness........

So, about number 7... I thought that when one is talking about something that may or may not happen, you use the subjunctive. Is that not the case? For example, there is no guarantee that the market will go down or that the writer will lose all of his money. So it's conjecture/hypothetical.... Right? So what hypothetical situations use the subjunctive and which don't ... because I thought that they all were supposed to do so.......

[JPablo]

No problem... (The biggest difficulty for me is to refer to the example... as I was not sure what we were talking about!)
Okay, here it is,
¿Y si la bolsa (7) baje baja y yo (7) pierda pierdo todo el dinero?

Okay, few options

¿Y si la bolsa baja y pierdo todo el dinero? (Conditional: what if X happens and Y happens then as a consequence.) [What will happen then?]
¿Y si la bolsa bajase/bajara y perdiese/perdiera todo el dinero? (Conditional: what if X happened and Y happened then as a consequence.) [implied: What would be the consequence then of the whole thing. The hypothetical aspect is the question.] [What would happen then?]
¿Y en caso de que la bolsa baje y pierda todo el dinero? [The subjunctive verbal forms you used will be fine in this construction, and is equivalent to the above.]

Making some more sense here?
(I need to go now, but I'll check back in few hours.)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

No problem... (The biggest difficulty for me is to refer to the example... as I was not sure what we were talking about!) <-- Aha!
Okay, here it is,
¿Y si la bolsa (7) baje baja y yo (7) pierda pierdo todo el dinero?

Okay, few options

¿Y si la bolsa baja y pierdo todo el dinero? (Conditional: what if X happens and Y happens then as a consequence.) [What will happen then?] <-- You say "conditional" here, but the tense used is present indicative... Let's call this "case #1".

¿Y si la bolsa bajase/bajara y perdiese/perdiera todo el dinero? (Conditional: what if X happened and Y happened then as a consequence.) [implied: What would be the consequence then of the whole thing. The hypothetical aspect is the question.] [What would happen then?] <-- Bajase/bajara and perdiese/perdiera are a tense that I haven't learned yet (imperfect subjunctive, right?). Can we skip this for now? Give me a few more weeks to get to the next chapter and start learning it....

¿Y en caso de que la bolsa baje y pierda todo el dinero? [The subjunctive verbal forms you used will be fine in this construction, and is equivalent to the above.] <--Is "en caso de que" necessary, or is it okay as an implied/unstated phrase, replaced by "si"? Let's call this "case #2".

Making some more sense here? <-- Starting to do so!

(I need to go now, but I'll check back in few hours.) <-- Thank you SO much for taking your time to follow my uber-detail-oriented questions!!

Okay, so about "case 1" and "case 2"..... So, in case 1, the conjecture in case 1 is not in the sentence stated ("what if X and Y..."), but in the idea you've bracketed ("what will happen then?")? Right? That's why bajar and perder are indicative?

And in case 2, the conjecture is about the dropping of the market and the losing of the money, so that's why the subjunctive is used?

[chileno]

I am going to go into the early = temprano/a issue only.

This is what RAE has in its first entry.

1. adj. Adelantado, anticipado o que es antes del tiempo regular u ordinario.

Ahead (of time), anticipated or that it is before its rehular or ordinary time.

Early retirement = Retiro temprano, anticipado, adelantado

I am planning to retire early. I am planning to retire before my regular time.

All these in contrast to:

I am planning to retire soon ( might be in year or two) regardless of how old you are.

Right?

It is the same in English or Spanish.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

I am going to go into the early = temprano/a issue only.

This is what RAE has in its first entry.

1. adj. Adelantado, anticipado o que es antes del tiempo regular u ordinario.

Ahead (of time), anticipated or that it is before its rehular or ordinary time.

Early retirement = Retiro temprano, anticipado, adelantado

I am planning to retire early. I am planning to retire before my regular time.

All these in contrast to:

I am planning to retire soon ( might be in year or two) regardless of how old you are.

Right?

It is the same in English or Spanish.

So, back to my original question. You will note that I originally wrote "temprano", but the book uses "pronto". My question was if the word "temprano" is acceptable here, or if "pronto" is the only possible answer. I believe you said "yes", that "yes, temprano IS acceptable here", right?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, back to my original question. You will note that I originally wrote "temprano", but the book uses "pronto". My question was if the word "temprano" is acceptable here, or if "pronto" is the only possible answer. I believe you said "yes", that "yes, temprano IS acceptable here", right?

Yes.

[JPablo]

Case #1, Correct, it is indicative for that reason.

Case #2, not sure exactly why, but it does not work with "if" but it works with "en caso de que" or could also work with "si se da la situación de que la bolsa baje"... (the "que" is what is needed to be able to use the subjunctive correctly, "que baje" "que pierda...")

But that's right, it is the conjecture, the hypothetical situation what gives you the usage of the subjunctive.

(You're welcome. By the way, answering your questions makes me analyze why we use this or that tense or mode, and it becomes an interesting exercise. Useful for me too, believe it or not.)

[laepelba]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Thanks to both of you (again!) for all of your help!!!

[JPablo]

Hey, "¡no hay de qué!"
Glad to be of service!