Compound Tenses

[laepelba]

Pero .... ¿Comó es "haber" un verbo auxiliar aunque "estar" no es...?

(Please know that I completely realize that we are "arguing" about semantics here....)

[irmamar]

Ser and estar are also verbos auxiliares. But they don't form compound forms in verbal tenses, but perífrasis verbales.

[poli]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Ser and estar are also verbos auxiliares. But they don't form compound forms in verbal tenses, but perífrasis verbales.

Ahora estoy confudido. No veo. No veo una gran diferencia entre la funcion de haber y estar en los siguientes frases: He salido y Esoy saliendo. Los dos verbos parecen auxiliario pero ¿estoy saliendo es un perifrasis verbal?

This is why linguistics classes at school alway drove me crazy. I think there is a point where I stop understanding. Everyone has their limits I suppose.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by poli

Ahora estoy confudido. No veo. No veo una gran diferencia entre la funcion de haber y estar en los siguientes frases: He salido y Esoy saliendo. Los dos verbos parecen auxiliario pero ¿estoy saliendo es un perifrasis verbal?

This is why linguistics classes at school alway drove me crazy. I think there is a point where I stop understanding. Everyone has their limits I suppose.

And THAT is why I was asking these questions. Again, I believe that in the end it's all about semantics, right?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by poli

Perhaps when you the the word compound verb could be read
as subordinate verb. The verb haber is subordinate to the particple, because the meaning of the verb is in the particple.

I see the point, but haber is the only finite part of the verb, so you also argue that the non-finite part, the participle, is (grammatically) subordinate to it . I think this is not getting us anywhere, because as far as I know, haber is always known as the auxiliary verb in these constructions. Other languages such as French and German use to have and also to be as auxiliary verbs in the active voice, depending on the participle.

[laepelba]

<<<....wondering how in the world a tiny little question I asked has turned into such a huge *discussion* about semantics...>>>

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

<<<....wondering how in the world a tiny little question I asked has turned into such a huge *discussion* about semantics...>>>

Well, that's the fun of turning over a stone - you never know what you may find underneath.

But seriously, it highlights the problem that terminology in languages is problematical.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

But seriously, it highlights the problem that terminology in languages is problematical.

[Perikles]

It must be the heat - I could not see the 'problem' until you changed its colour. Sorry - color.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo

Yes, I see. I want to use/enjoy this site and my Spanish books.

Si, ya/lo veo. Quiero usar/disfrutar este sitio y mi libros de Español.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

It must be the heat - I could not see the 'problem' until you changed its colour. Sorry - color.

Oh, really? I was certain that you had written it like that on purpose. ("habías escrito" o "hubiste escrito"....)

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Oh, really? I was certain that you had written it like that on purpose. ("habías escrito" o "hubiste escrito"....)

Is hubiese escrito

Did you want to mean that?

[irmamar]

When you are studying verbs, you're studying "conjugación verbal", all the forms a verb is able to show depending on some categories (tiempo, persona, número, modo, aspecto, etc.). Verbal compound forms belong to that "conjugación", and they are formed with "haber".

"Perífrasis verbales" are two verbs together working as a unity. One of the verbs is conjugated, the other is a non-personal form (infinitivo, gerundio o participio), with a link (preposition, conjunction) or not. For instance: tener que hacer (tengo que hacer, tienes que hacer, etc.), deber salir (debo salir, debes salir, etc.), estar + haciendo (estoy haciendo, estás haciendo, etc.). Verbal compound forms are also "perífrasis verbales" (he comido, has hecho, etc.). But when you study those "perífrasis" you have already studied conjugation, so you will learn that verbal compound forms are a kind of perífrasis and you don't need to learn them, because you already know them. There are a large quantity of "perífrasis" divided into some types, but you can use many verbs in a non-personal form, while the conjugated ones are not so many (estar, haber, tener que, ir a, andar, seguir, dejar, ser, etc.).

Similary, passive voice is also a "perífrasis verbal", but you won't study passive voice with "perífrasis", since it deserves a separate lesson (like verbal compound forms). When you study "perífrasis", you'll be told that passive voice is a special kind of perífrasis, but you'll already know it.

In English I have studied continuous forms of verbs while I was studying another tenses, but I have never done that when studying Spanish. I guess the reason is that we don't have a "presente continuo" or a "pasado continuo" (and when I hear those terms, I'm sure that they are anglicisms), we use that sort of "perífrasis" instead. Well, they are grammar matters.

[chileno]

Irma:

I think this explanation will satisfy Lou Ann's mathematical mind perfectly.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by chileno

Irma:

I think this explanation will satisfy Lou Ann's mathematical mind perfectly.

Sure?

[laepelba]

Okay, you two, sometimes it scares me when people I've never met know me so well. LOL!! Thanks for that in depth explanation, Irma. I still don't like it ... but can live with it.

[irmamar]

I'm sure you'll be able to understand it. I've been told that I have a logical mind, too logical even. But grammar and the way of learning it is not a problem for me.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I'm sure you'll be able to understand it. I've been told that I have a logical mind, too logical even. But grammar and the way of learning it is not a problem for me.

Oh, I KNOW you have a logical mind. That is why I'm always SO glad when you jump in with answers to my nit picky grammar questions. In fact, I typically ask them with you in mind. It's not that I don't understand. I just don't like it. I think I need to go work on some Algebra....

[irmamar]

Why don't you like it? It's beautiful like a bright white flower in a green field (algebra is not like this, by the way).

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Why don't you like it? It's beautiful like a bright white flower in a green field (algebra is not like this, by the way).

My dislike is just because I don't see such a huge difference between "estar + gerundio" and "haber + participio".

Given that I DO understand ALL of these explanations, and that I CAN accept them, I will choose to live with my "dislike" of this one tiny point, because I KNOW that it will NOT hamper my ability to learn to speak Spanish. Thanks for all of your contributions!!