Gerundios vs participio presente

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

¿Pero como adjectivo sin concordancia?

Porque el gerundio no tiene género ni número, no puedes decir "ardienda". Sí tiene género y número el participio, pero el gerundio es invariable.

[vita32]

Originally Posted by Perikles

This is confusing. I think escuchando is an adjective here.

From a linguistic point of view, you may be technically correct, but this is extraordinarily confusing when you compare

estoy comiendo with I am eating

This comiendo is a gerundio, while the eating is a present participle, and their functions are identical. In my book, it makes far more sense to identify this gerundio effectively as present participle, but simply with a different name.

In the above, eating is an adjective. An English gerund is a noun, and according to my dictionary, so is gerundio. I don't see how that can work with estoy, because surely the gerundio is working here as an adjective.

I think "listening" (escuchando) is used as a gerund in the sentence because it is the object of the preposition "by" and definitely not the verb in the phrase: I relax by listening to music. The verb here is "relax" and "listening" only describes how the verb "relax" is accomplished.

I think "eating" in the above sentence is a verb because it tells what action (verb) the subject "I" is doing.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but explain why I'm wrong.
Thanks

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by vita32

I think "listening" (escuchando) is used as a gerund in the sentence because it is the object of the preposition "by" and definitely not the verb in the phrase: I relax by listening to music. The verb here is "relax" and "listening" only describes how the verb "relax" is accomplished.

I think "eating" in the above sentence is a verb because it tells what action (verb) the subject "I" is doing.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but explain why I'm wrong.
Thanks

I would say you are correct. I've been trying to get some clarity here, and it does seem that these labels are more flexible than I thought. One fact is clear: the English gerund is a noun, and the English present participle is an adjective or verb (or part of it). So above, "eating" is part of the verb, and "listening" seems to be a gerund. See wiki . Note that the article gives different definitions for Spanish. Lithuanian is interesting.

The important point here is that the label "gerund" or "present participle" varies so much with each language that you can't generalize, and you can't transport the concepts between languages without creating confusion.

Originally Posted by Perikles

This is confusing. I think escuchando is an adjective here.

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I think I agree with Alec here.
"Escuchando" is not an adjective, but an action.

Sorry, I'm confusing the issue by making statements in English about Spanish syntax. You are correct, but it wouldn't be correct in all languages. I can't decide about the status of "by listening" in English, but I think it's a gerund, thus a noun. Each language views the construction differently - (in Greek for example it would be an adjectival construction).

All rather confusing.

[aleCcowaN]

Sigo recordando usos:

Lo que yo explico como "amague, o con sordina", o como encontré en los libros, con valor atenuativo o aproximativo (y función adverbial, agregaría yo): "Se acercó, como queriendo disculparse"

Originally Posted by JPablo

"Aprendiendo" que es gerundio... (Mi madre solía usar un gerundio del verbo que fuera, para "dar prisa" y añadir la coletilla "que es gerundio"...) (Creo que todavía es un uso extendido en España: "trabajando, que es gerundio")

Me olvidaba de esa: "Saliendo que es gerundio" como previa a "saliendo de una buena vez"

Originally Posted by JPablo

Yo creo que "En busca de Forrester" o "A la búsqueda de Forrester" aunque no he visto la película, he mirado en Wikipedia... se me ocurre (broma) "¿Dónde demonios está Sean Connery?" o "El descubrimiento de Forrester" o... "¿Quién me encuentra a Sean Connery?" (bueno, más vale que pare, porque después de cenar un par de "steaks" puedo volverme propenso a los "mis-steakes"...)

Es que "Descubriendo a Forrester" describe bien las capas de cebolla de la trama, y todo lo demás es impreciso, incorrecto o débil. Por eso digo que no está bien aplicar reglas universales. Lo mismo, cuando hay un cambio de sujeto en el medio: "El juez dictó sentencia condenando al acusado a prisión perpetua". Si hubiera dicho "El juez dictó sentencia y condenó al acusado a prisión perpetua" yo hubiera pensado "quién se cree que es este juez mala entraña para tomárselas personalmente contra el acusado".

[vita32]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I would say you are correct. I've been trying to get some clarity here, and it does seem that these labels are more flexible than I thought. One fact is clear: the English gerund is a noun, and the English present participle is an adjective or verb (or part of it). So above, "eating" is part of the verb, and "listening" seems to be a gerund. See wiki . Note that the article gives different definitions for Spanish. Lithuanian is interesting.

The important point here is that the label "gerund" or "present participle" varies so much with each language that you can't generalize, and you can't transport the concepts between languages without creating confusion.

I think you are right. What I can conclude from this discussion is that we cannot apply English rule on what gerund is or how to use it on a spanish sentence or vice versa. From studying other spanish site, I'm discovering
that gerund has different definition and use in spanish. For clarification on English gerund, I found this site: http://www.sonner.ct.com/ Sorry for this error in typing, I meant to type:
http://www.sonnerct.com

The site clearly defines gerund and other parts of speech and how they are
used in English Sentences.

Buenos discusiones (good discussions)!

[Rusty]

What you've been discussing in this thread, I've already said in several others. So, I was trying not to say anything more. However, ...

The English gerund is NOT a translation of the Spanish gerundio. The English present participle is a proper translation of gerundio.

The English gerund is a noun. The Spanish equivalent is the infinitivo.

Learning the grammatical names of these types of words and the roles they play makes it easier for me to understand.
That way I don't have to worry why the English gerund ends in '-ing' but the Spanish equivalent doesn't. I just need to know that both function as nouns even though they look like verbs. Likewise, I don't have to worry why a verbal doesn't have to be conjugated in English, or agree in number or gender in Spanish. Verbals are used as adjectives and nouns in both languages. They never function as verbs, even though they look like a verb.

[vita32]

I just need to study more spanish Gerundio and how it is used in spanish sentences and forget about English grammar for now, although it is hard to do because, it is as if I have to reconfigure my brain lol! )

[JPablo]

I understand you Vita32! If you check Rusty's posts on the matter, I think you'll get a better understanding and will be able to "reconfigure" your brain "back and forth" with "agility"!

@Alec. You're totally right. It is a good point the fact that one cannot just "apply a universal law" on this matter, but look into the context and see what fits better there. (Your "Forrester" example, is a very good one, and knowing the film, as you do "Descubriendo" may fit better than anything else.)
Some "universal laws" or "stable data" for LEARNING are useful though, and once one have the basic ideas clear, one can then "specialize" sort of speak.

[vita32]

Originally Posted by JPablo

I understand you Vita32! If you check Rusty's posts on the matter, I think you'll get a better understanding and will be able to "reconfigure" your brain "back and forth" with "agility"!

@Alec. You're totally right. It is a good point the fact that one cannot just "apply a universal law" on this matter, but look into the context and see what fits better there. (Your "Forrester" example, is a very good one, and knowing the film, as you do "Descubriendo" may fit better than anything else.)
Some "universal laws" or "stable data" for LEARNING are useful though, and once one have the basic ideas clear, one can then "specialize" sort of speak.

LOL! I wish reconfiguring my brain is that easy but I have to do a lot of this
to prevent from doing this!

Spanish is a lot harder to learn than English. It takes a whole page to print out all the conjugation of one verb including the gerund form, the conditional (condicional), imperative(imperativo) mode. English conjugation of one verb will not take this much space! I'll stop complaining and do some serious work and reread Rusty's posts.

Gracias por tus aliento

[JPablo]

De nada... ¡y sigue adelante!