Subjunctive question [again:>))]

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Vikingo

In your first example, you could say "No creo que los que vienen a la fiesta estén invitados". That is, if you knew who they were. There are different reasons for using the subjunctive, and in this case the choice of indicative or subjunctive in the relative clause ("los que vengan/vienen) is based on whether the antecedent is specific or not. It's independent of creo/no creo. Please tell me that you see this.

So, there are different reasons. Right? You've carefully chosen examples to prove your point, but I strongly recommend that you read my second post again.

I'm sure you can find other examples, but let's take this one: "Creo que no hay nadie que quiera participar". The "hay" comes from the positive belief, the "quiera" from the negative antecedent in the adjectival phrase ("nadie").

The same thing happens when we're talking about "casi nadie", as in the original example. Let me try to finish this argumentation by quoting from J. Borrego et al, "El subjuntivo: valores y usos", Regla 18:

Poco (y variantes) y apenas, como equivalentes en significado a "casi ninguno" (y variantes), "casi nadie" o "casi nada", así como estas últimas expresiones, cuando consistuyen por si solas el antecedente o forman parte de él, exigen subjuntivo en la oración relativa. (...)

(1) Sé de pocos que hayan venido.
(2) Disponemos de pocos folletos que puedan servirte.
(...)

Cuando poco (y sus variantes) no tienen primordialmente el significado "casi ninguno", etc. - y esto es general cuando va acompañado de determinante (el, los, unos, etc.) - admite indicativo o subjuntivo en la oración relativa (...)

(10) a. Los pocos invitados que han llegado están cenando.
(10) b. Los pocos invitados que hayan llegado estarán cenando.

If you put the pieces together carefully here, I'm sure you'll see the reason for the second subjunctive in "No creo que haya muchos que quieran participar". The first, haya, is caused by the "no creo que". The second is caused by the resulting semantics of there being very few.

And of course the coffee shop has a table for 3

Saludos

"No creer que" usually implies subjunctive, which is the case of the former examples. In your example: "No creo que los que vienen a la fiesta" the speaker is not doubting, but asserting. So I would change your sentence and I'd say: "Creo que los que vienen a la fiesta no están invitados".

As I told you, Tacuba's sentence and your examples are completely different sentences in my opinion. I can't compare a "subordinada sustantiva" with a "subordinada adjetiva", I take the two subordinate sentences as a whole (No creo "eso", and "eso" means: que haya muchos que vayan...).

And while Borrego and Porto Dapena explain that indicative can follow verbs with mental activity in a negative sentence (such as "no creer que"), Fernández Álvarez considers just the contrary. And as my way of speaking is like this, as the way I've studied the subjunctive is like this, I agree with Álvarez.

Well, we could go on with this question for ever, but I think that you're making extrange changes into the sentences, since your sentence has nothing to do with the former one. They're just different sentences (in my opinion).

But thanks for your invitation.

Originally Posted by tacuba

Interesting discussion. My understanding is that if the verb in the main clause is a verb of doubt, denial or negation, and the subject of the verb changes in the subordinate clause, the subjunctive has to be used, there is simply not any choice. I'm looking right now at "The Spanish Subjunctive-Up Close" by Eric Vogt, and this is stated quite emphatically on page 27. "The rule is that Verb2 must be in the subjunctive form if and only if there is a change of subject, that is, if Subject1 and Subject2 are not the same person and if Verb1 is a W.E.I.R.D.O. verb."

W.E.I.R.D.O. verbs

W - Wishing, willing, wanting, hoping, expecting etc..
E - Emotion
I - Impersonal expression
R - Requesting, asking, demanding, commanding or causing
D - Doubt, denial, or negation
O - Ojalá

Yes, you're right.

And "subordinadas finales": para que, a fin de que, etc.

Trabajo para que (tú) puedas estudiar.
Trabajo para (yo) poder estudiar.