Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 15-6)

[laepelba]

I am continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

This exercise is from one of several chapters on the subjunctive and asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. Most of my questions this time are about the use of the subjunctive.

I want to ask a few questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.




My Questions:
(1) I remember a thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...der+adjectives ) about the order of adjectives. But is there a certain requirement for the adjectives here that they would need to be different than in the English? Or was that something that the "editors" did in error?
(2) Lacio o liso? Are they interchangeable here?
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
(4) My dictionary says that "the color of the hair" is "el color de cabello". Is the "su" necessary?
(5) Are they the same, "quería" and "había querido"?
(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
(9) Why was it "de su cabello" earlier in the paragraph, and for the same "color of her hair" it is now "del pelo"?
(10) Are empezar and comenzar interchangeable here?
(11) Is there a mistake in the book that they left out "a la cara"?
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
(13) I thought this was the kind of adjective phrase (that answers the question "when?") that would require the subjunctive. Why not?
(14) Why "hablar" and not "decir"?
(15) Is the "le" okay there?
(16) Why is the "y" there?

As always, thank you SO much for the help you always give me. I know there are more questions this time than usual, but I believe that most of them (all but two or three) should only require short little answers....

[JPablo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Sabrina tenía pelo (1) largo, castaño castaño, largo y (2) liso lacio. Fue a la peluquería y le dijo al a su peluquero a cortar que le cortara el pelo. Pete, el peluquero, le sugirió que cambiara el color de (4) su cabello. Sabrina siempre (5) quería había querido que (6) el su pelo fuera diferente. Ella decidió que (7) quisiera quería ser una rubia. Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina. Ella prefería un color que fuera claro. Tres horas y media después de que él cambiara el color (9) de cabello del pelo, Pete (10) empezó comenzó usar las tijeras. Cuando Pete terminó, Sabrina se miró (11) a la cara en el al espejo. ¡Y (12) ella le vio a una mujer muy diferente! Cuando Sabrina (13) volviera volvió a casa, ella entró y su esposo no (14) dijo habló mucho. Él parecía confudido. Antes de que Sabrina le pidiera su opinión, (15) le su esposo dijo: "¿(16) Y porqué por qué no un permanente también?"
[/TABLE]My Questions:
(1) I remember a thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...der+adjectives ) about the order of adjectives. But is there a certain requirement for the adjectives here that they would need to be different than in the English? Or was that something that the "editors" did in error?
Seems editors error.
(2) Lacio o liso? Are they interchangeable here?
Yes, they are interchangeable, but "lacio" is the best collocation, as it is used mainly with hair.
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
(4) My dictionary says that "the color of the hair" is "el color de cabello". Is the "su" necessary?
Not necessarily. Maybe it is better, but not mandatory.
(5) Are they the same, "quería" and "había querido"?
Not exactly, the "quería" gives a "durative" sense to the intention. The second "había querido" seems to indicate that "not anymore" i.e., now she got it. On the first one it seems that she stills wants the change of color and has not happened yet necessarily.
(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
(9) Why was it "de su cabello" earlier in the paragraph, and for the same "color of her hair" it is now "del pelo"?
Not sure. They are synonyms and both correct, for my money.
(10) Are empezar and comenzar interchangeable here?
I believe pretty much everywhere these are very close synonyms.
(11) Is there a mistake in the book that they left out "a la cara"?
Mmmm... not necessarily... seems rather implied, but probably better making it explicit.
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
(13) I thought this was the kind of adjective phrase (that answers the question "when?") that would require the subjunctive. Why not?
Nothing hypothetical here, it is a fact that she came back home. No guess or wish... she came back.
(14) Why "hablar" and not "decir"?
Both fine to me. I'd say "decir" like you did.
(15) Is the "le" okay there?
Yes, but it could be ambiguous, as to who talked to whom.
(16) Why is the "y" there?
Emphasis, an idiomatic way to "introduce" the question. As in "Why not [on top of everything]..."

As always, thank you SO much for the help you always give me. I know there are more questions this time than usual, but I believe that most of them (all but two or three) should only require short little answers....

Let's see if I can answer all the points before I have to run...
Looks like I did answer. (I have to run, so I am not reviewing my answers, but if you have any question and/or I made a big typo... forgive it for now... and I'll check later...
Cheers!

Well, I fixed a couple of typos, but other than that, it seems pretty straight forward. (Let me know if anything not clear.)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
So, would the indicative be okay here, too? Which would you use?

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
But, um, I thought that the general idea was that if it's *obvious* whose hair we're talking about, then it's "el", but if there's some confusion, we'd need the possessive. It's obvious we're talking about HER hair. Is "el" okay here?

(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
Even though it's the dependent clause about something that she decided....?

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....

(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?

Thanks so much, Pablo! I only have a few ongoing questions....

[JPablo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Originally Posted by JPablo
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
So, would the indicative be okay here, too? Which would you use?
You could say it like the book,
Fue a la peluquería y le dijo a su peluquero que le cortara el pelo.
Or you could use a direct style:
Fue a la peluquería y le dijo a su peluquero: Córteme el pelo.

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
But, um, I thought that the general idea was that if it's *obvious* whose hair we're talking about, then it's "el", but if there's some confusion, we'd need the possessive. It's obvious we're talking about HER hair. Is "el" okay here?
Sabrina siempre había querido que (6) el su pelo fuera diferente.
If you say, Sabrina always wanted hair to be different, it comes across as a generality, i.e., if Sabrina is herself in the business of "hairdressing'' she'd like "hair to be different" (she'd do different things for different clients) Of if she is an Art Director for a film or... or... It is not obvious (with "el") that we talk about her hair. Thus, it seems the possessive is required here.

(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
Even though it's the dependent clause about something that she decided....?
She had decided thus, indicative.
Had she wished, then we'd go with subjunctive.
decidió que quería ser rubia.
"deseaba que pudiera ser rubia" would be a subjunctive option.

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....
Mmm... I think you may be mixing the PRONOUN (for IO, for Direct Object) and the "actual'' Indirect or Direct Object.
Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina.
"le" (a Sabrina).
Les dieron chocolate a los chavales. Is a common construction.
A ellos les dieron chocolate. is also valid. In the case of "Sabrina" sounds better at the end...
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?
Vio a una mujer. = He saw a woman.
La vio (a ella) = He saw her.
Le dio una flor (a ella) = He gave her a flower [to her]

"Le vio a una mujer" doesn't make any sense.
"Le dio una flor a una mujer" (He gave a flower to a woman) does make sense. (There you have it!)
I hope the examples help. Otherwise, I'll be back on-line tomorrow... (but probably Irma or Alec... or some other good friend will give us a hand...)


Thanks so much, Pablo! I only have a few ongoing questions....

You're welcome. As noted above. Hopefully my answers clarify a bit better.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

(1) I remember a thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...der+adjectives ) about the order of adjectives. But is there a certain requirement for the adjectives here that they would need to be different than in the English? Or was that something that the "editors" did in error?
(2) Lacio o liso? Are they interchangeable here?
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
(4) My dictionary says that "the color of the hair" is "el color de cabello". Is the "su" necessary?
(5) Are they the same, "quería" and "había querido"?

1) Although no special order is required, it's good speaking to group adjectives by area, that is, colour in one hand, "shape" on the other; permanent features and circumstantial ones, etc. "Castaño, lacio y largo" (maybe "largo y lacio") would be the more stylish option.
2) No and yes. The hair "es lacio" and "es (está) liso". "Lacio" is sort or a DNA thing. People "tiene el cabello lacio" but "no lo lleva lacio". "Ella tiene el cabello lacio pero se hizo la permanente".
3) It is subjunctive because it is "lo dicho" (It's a noun) and the person hearing "lo dicho" is who puts it into practice. That may happen or not -it depends on the hairdresser- because of this.
4) Hair (and its colour) may be regarded as an object (cabello) or an attribute of the person (su cabello).
5) "siempre quería" (all the time, and the hair changed -or not-, and changed again -or not-; it's like an appetite)
"siempre había querido" (it was an unsatisfied wish during a long time)

Originally Posted by laepelba

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
(9) Why was it "de su cabello" earlier in the paragraph, and for the same "color of her hair" it is now "del pelo"?
(10) Are empezar and comenzar interchangeable here?
(11) Is there a mistake in the book that they left out "a la cara"?
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
(13) I thought this was the kind of adjective phrase (that answers the question "when?") that would require the subjunctive. Why not?
(14) Why "hablar" and not "decir"?
(15) Is the "le" okay there?
(16) Why is the "y" there?

As always, thank you SO much for the help you always give me. I know there are more questions this time than usual, but I believe that most of them (all but two or three) should only require short little answers....

6) Same as 4). Besides "que el pelo fuera diferente" may also mean something like "hair (in general) not being what it is or not having the properties it has", while "que su pelo fuera diferente" is clearly her hair having a different style, or at most being another possible kind of hair.
7) "quisiera ser rubia" (just a wish)
"quería ser rubia" --> sets in motion all what is needed to accomplish it.
8) both orders are OK. The order suggested is easier to process.
9) Just alternating "pelo" and "cabello" to avoid redundancy.
10) Yep. Commence looks here nicer than start.
11) "Mirarse al espejo" is looking the whole of oneself. No need to be specific when you know what she was looking. "Se miró la cara en el espejo" is specific.
12) No, because it's felt like a whole new image, but not the image of another person.
13) She did come home.
14) "habló" is less specific and maybe appropriate for that story, but "decir" is also O.K. though one expects that "hablar" means 'in general' and "decir" is about her look.
15) "le" is OK
16) Just "por qué" may mean "something done instead" or maybe a hint of dissaproval. "Y por qué" may mean "in addition" o something like "I don't disapprove it, but I want to know the cause" or "take it as a suggestion".

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Originally Posted by laepelba
Originally Posted by JPablo

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....
Mmm... I think you may be mixing the PRONOUN (for IO, for Direct Object) and the "actual'' Indirect or Direct Object.
Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina.
"le" (a Sabrina).
Les dieron chocolate a los chavales. Is a common construction.
A ellos les dieron chocolate. is also valid. In the case of "Sabrina" sounds better at the end...
I meant only with "me/te/le gusta(n)" ... I've always seen that if an object is stated, it comes before the rest of the phrase like this: "a mi me gusta chocolates" or "a ti te gusta fútbal" or "a mi hermano le gusta jugar ajedrez", etc....

(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?
Vio a una mujer. = He saw a woman.
La vio (a ella) = He saw her.
Le dio una flor (a ella) = He gave her a flower [to her]

"Le vio a una mujer" doesn't make any sense.
"Le dio una flor a una mujer" (He gave a flower to a woman) does make sense. (There you have it!)
I hope the examples help. Otherwise, I'll be back on-line tomorrow... (but probably Irma or Alec... or some other good friend will give us a hand...)
Would it also be okay to say "la vio a una mujer"?
I am constantly confusing IO's and DO's. I need to do an intensive study of them. I have an upcoming chapter and probably a whole other workbook about them ... but I have to finish up this initial study of the subjunctive first....

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

6) Same as 4). Besides "que el pelo fuera diferente" may also mean something like "hair (in general) not being what it is or not having the properties it has", while "que su pelo fuera diferente" is clearly her hair having a different style, or at most being another possible kind of hair.
I'm not quite there yet ... there is another thread about this, but I can't find it at the moment.... I'll try to refresh. We use the possessive pronouns so much more in English, it's difficult for me to distinguish when to and when not to in Spanish........

8) both orders are OK. The order suggested is easier to process.
Is this one of those things where sentences in Spanish often place the most important words (the ones the speaker wants stressed) at the end?

10) Yep. Commence looks here nicer than start.
Interesting. We very rarely use "commence" in English, except in very formal situations...

11) "Mirarse al espejo" is looking the whole of oneself. No need to be specific when you know what she was looking. "Se miró la cara en el espejo" is specific.
It just irritates me that they put whole phrases in the English that they don't then even allude to in the Spanish.

Thanks both of you for your patience with me!!

[JPablo]

8) Yes, that is correct.
12) "La vio a una mujer" sounds odd, not actually 'correct'.
You could say "La vio... (a una mujer)" to "clarify"... but being "la" it would be "La vio (a la mujer)" (He saw a specific woman we were talking before.)

"Le dio una flor a una mujer" is correct.
IO +verb +DO + CI

"La vio a ella (no a su hermana)" is also fine.

[laepelba]

Gotcha! Thanks!

[JPablo]

You're welcome!

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Is this one of those things where sentences in Spanish often place the most important words (the ones the speaker wants stressed) at the end?

It's the same that 5.c

So to speak, consecutive or nested

que le gustara a Sabrina / que empezara la película
que a Sabrina le gustara / que la película empezara

It has to do with bulk grammatical processing of information. Consecutive is easier to (mentally) process by children and uneducated people, and it's the main way used in informal contexts.

If you find today easier or more natural the nested way, you're thinking in English . No problem, I'm thinking in Spanish while I write this (thinking in English I would have written "while I'm writing...")

I know, it's not easy.