Please and Thank You

[laepelba]

I'm not sure if this is appropriate for the "Vocabulary" forum, or for one of the forums more about culture. I'll let the moderators decide....

Given that tomorrow is Thanksgiving (el Día de Acción de Gracias) here in the United States, I think that this question is quite appropriately timed....

I have read recently about the use of "por favor" in Spanish being somewhat different than saying "please" in English. I wish I had copied the link from the one article in particular. Anyway, I have read/heard about this before, and it is very interesting to me. The idea was that Spanish-speakers use "por favor" less frequently, and in a slightly different context than English-speakers use "please". I don't know if other Americans would agree with me, but I was definitely raised to say "please" and "thank you" for just about everything. "Please hand me the milk" "Thank you!" and "Please come here" "Thank you!" and "May I have some more, please" (I couldn't resist that last one....)

Anyway, the most recent article I read about this is that "por favor" in Spanish is like asking a favor from someone you call "usted", and you only say it when you are truly asking someone to go out of their way. That's definitely not the sense of the word "please", which you are supposed to ask to everyone when making any kind of even extremely simple request.

I was also taught as a kid to write thank you notes for everything ... and even read "etiquette" articles at my greatly advanced age to make sure that my electronic thank you's aren't inappropriately diminutive. A close friend who lived in Peru the first 30+ years of her life will occasionally comment to me after receiving one of my thank you notes that she doesn't really understand why we (Americans) write thank you notes. (I also notice that she hangs them up on her fridge and they often stay there for months....) The same article about the "por favor" also mentioned the smaller frequency of the use of "gracias" in Spanish than we use "thank you" in English. I also have to point out that my Latin American students don't say "please" or "thank you" nearly as often as those students born & raised in the United States.

SOOOOooooo ... what are your thoughts on these things? Are there regional differences in the use of por favor/gracias and please/thank you? What are the differences in the senses in which they are used?

And, Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here at Tomisimo! (¡Feliz Día de Acción de Gracias!)

An example:

[aleCcowaN]

The only thank-you telephone call or note I remember being told to do as a child was when I got a gift which was sent via a messenger or was brought to me by a common friend or relative. The same about thanking gifts or telegrams from people not attending a wedding, birthday party, etc. Here there was that sort of Victorian custom of thank-you letters and phone calls, but people is pretty much cured of it nowadays. I distrust people doing such things, as thank-you speech is not the measure of true solidarność.

I am very polite and formal everywhere but Internet fora, and I use "por favor" and "gracias" in any asymmetrical relationship:

• To ask something to a perfect stranger.
• To ask something to an employee whose duty is providing that something
• While being abusive by asking too many things from a relative, a friend, a co-worker, not being able to return the favor in the short term.

[ookami]

I think, and hope to corroborate with alec, that is quite common to obviate "por favor" by just telling a direct order but in a gentile tone or with a smile... or just that, a request; but when it's done, saying thanks.

I usually have breakfast at cafés, and the general rule is not saying "por favor", or "sir", but making some gestures or saying "gracias" in some instance... and I think it's more sincere that way.

-Yo quiero un café con leche y tres medialunas de manteca... ¡ah! ¿no me pasás un diario?
***lo trae***
-Gracias.

I'm usually exagerated polite, almost in a mockery way, so I use a lot of those ettiquete things, but in main terms, you will only here "gracias" in normal conversations.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by ookami

I think, and hope to corroborate with alec, that is quite common to obviate "por favor" by just telling a direct order but in a gentle/gentler tone or with a smile... or just that, a request; but when it's done, saying thanks.

I usually have breakfast at cafés, and the general rule is not saying "por favor", or "sir", but making some gestures or saying "gracias" in some instance... and I think it's more sincere that way.

-Yo quiero un café con leche y tres medialunas de manteca... ¡ah! ¿no me pasás un diario?
***lo trae***
-Gracias.

I'm usually exagerated polite, almost in a mockery way, so I use a lot of those ettiquete things, but in main terms, you will only here "gracias" in normal conversations.

I tend to agree with ookami and alec on some of their points.

However, in Chile you are supposed to ask with a "por favor" and give "thanks" at the end. Whether you know the person or not.

What we did not do, I guess it is being somewhat being done nowadays, is to send thank you notes, letter, cards etc.

That's too much.

If I invite you to dine or to a party at my home, most likely I will expect a "thank you" from you, after I tell you, in person or by phone, that I am inviting you over. You won't be expecting a "please" from me unless I am begging you to go, for one reason or another. And also it happens like the girl in the video states.

Happy Thanksgivings to you all.

[CrOtALiTo]

I believe it's enough with says Por favor and gracias.

It's the more polite.

[ookami]

Thanks for the corrections chileno.

Originally Posted by chileno

If I invite you to dine or to a party at my home, most likely I will expect a "thank you" from you, after I tell you, in person or by phone, that I am inviting you over. You won't be expecting a "please" from me unless I am begging you to go, for one reason or another. And also it happens like the girl in the video states.

I'm with you on that. When you are invited to a dine, I would consider normal just to accept it, and after the dinner/party, when you are leaving, you would express some gratitude for the invitation. Or maybe during dinner. Another thing is if you reject the invitation, then obviously you have to give the thanks in the moment. ("you have", like robots) I would likely not to give thanks to a friend if I reject his invitation, or even to an acquaintance if I've some confidence with him. With people close to you, you can be more sincere and obviate frivolous things like effusive thanks. You can show gratitude with actions. Words are just that, appearence.

Well, I'm sure I've made a lot of mistakes, so [please] correct them if you want... or not!
Thank you very much for your corrections in advance, you are very considerate.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Younger people tend to forget about what they've been taught, but a well-raised Mexican is expected to always say "please" when asking for anything (or when using an imperative formulas) and "gracias" after getting it.
Many of us tend to suffer a little from cultural shocks when foreigners don't use those "magic" words. I met a Belgian teacher who laughed at the many courtesy expressions that surround most of everyday activities, and how much time we lose on using them.


At the table:
¿Me pasas la sal, por favor? (Will you please pass the salt?)
Pásame la sal, por favor.
¿Me pasas la sal?
Pásame la sal.

At a restaurant:
¿Me trae un café por favor? / ¿Me podría traer un café por favor? (Would you bring me a coffee please?
Tráigame un café, por favor.
¿Me trae un café?
Tráigame un café.

When you have the salt or the coffee, you're expected to say things like:
- (Muchas) gracias. (Usually with a smile)
- Qué amable, (muchas) gracias.


Written notes or thank you calls are never necessary, but they may be a nice (unexpected) gesture.
However, if you've been invited for dinner, to a party, etc., it's a good idea to ask if you can bring something. And you're supposed to make a compliment for the people who invited you as you're leaving:
- La comida estuvo deliciosa, muchas gracias.
- Gracias por la invitación, me divertí mucho.
- La pasamos muy bien, gracias por invitarnos.
...

[ookami]

Wow, that is a waitress or an authoritarian king? :P
I agree with Angélica, those last expressions are very crude, I would add...:

-Quiero un café con... You can add "por favor", but for me it's ok without it, you are telling the waitress what you want, not making him a direct order. "I want a coffe with..."
-¿No me trae un poco de...? It's common to use a negative question to ask for something without using "por favor" and not being rude...

For a Spanish student I think that learning the most formal options is always the best thing, he can travel to several countries and be understood without being rude. But if you want to be "one among the others" using too much courtesy is... not rude... but you are taking a lot of distance with the other person. A French guy told me the other day that he came to Argentina for a year, but stayed more than ten years -he continue living here, because (leaving aside other things) he liked that "familiar touch" he could find here, something ausent in his country. He was able to make friends easily, have a chat with a waitress as if he was an acquantaince, etc. So being very formal it's a good shield to be sure of not being rude, but it's not a friendly or kind way to speak, at least here. Maybe in a country with more cold people it'll be better.

The best courtesy expressions are the ones your face, body and voice make, words... are just a detail.

[laepelba]

I find that all very interesting. I seem to remember something when I was at a friend's home in Uruguay this past summer, but I don't remember the exact details. It had something to do with my thanking she and her mother for dinner, and they both exclaimed that that's not what they do in Uruguay (saying thank you for a meal) but to express how delicious it was. Dang, I wish I could remember exactly the conversation. I think I'm going to ask...

[chileno]

Originally Posted by ookami

Thanks for the corrections chileno.



I'm with you on that. When you are invited to a diner, I would consider normal just to accept it, and after the dinner/party, when you are leaving, you would express some gratitude for the invitation. Or maybe during dinner. Another thing is if you reject the invitation, then obviously you have to give the thanks in the moment. ("you have", like robots) I would likely not to give thanks to a friend if I reject his invitation, or even to an acquaintance if I've some confidence with him. With people close to you, you can be more sincere and obviate frivolous things like effusive thanks. You can show gratitude with actions. Words are just that, appearance.

Well, I'm sure I've made a lot of mistakes, so [please] correct them if you want... or not!
Thank you very much for your corrections in advance, you are very considerate.

Originally Posted by ookami

Wow, that is a waitress or an authoritarian king? :P
I agree with Angélica, those last expressions are very crude, I would add...:

-Quiero un café con... You can add "por favor", but for me it's ok without it, you are telling the waitress what you want, not making her a direct order. "I want a coffe with..."
-¿No me trae un poco de...? It's common to use a negative question to ask for something without using "por favor" and not being rude...

For a Spanish student I think that learning the most formal options is always the best thing, he can travel to several countries and be understood without being rude. But if you want to be "one among the others" using too much courtesy is... not rude... but you are taking a lot of distance with the other person. A French guy told me the other day that he came to Argentina for a year, but stayed more than ten years -he continue living here, because (leaving aside other things) he liked that "familiar touch" he could find here, something absent in his country. He was able to make friends easily, have a chat with a waitress as if he was an acquaintance, etc. So being very formal it's a good shield to be sure of not being rude, but it's not a friendly or kind way to speak, at least here. Maybe in a country with more cold people it'll be better.

The best courtesy expressions are the ones your face, body and voice make, words... are just a detail.

You are welcome

We do axactly as Angélica related. And I have the hunch that Lou Ann's uruguayan friend is going to say the same thing....

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I also agree with Ookami about "¿no me trae...?". This way of asking for things used to be very common in Mexico, until there was a wave of impoliteness when people started replying things like "¿no? Pues entonces no." (Not? So it won't be done.)
Many people since then think the right thing is to say things like "¿Sí me pasas la sal?" or "¿Sí me trae un café?", which sound even more rude than not using courtesy formula, but they think they're being polite. They're not conscious they're using a wrong expression, when a simple "por favor" would do.

[JPablo]

¿No sería "Si me pasas la sal"? (Sin tilde)
En España se podría usar así.
Lo común, "Me pasarías la sal" bastante educado, sin usar "por favor".

Usar "por favor" puede ser más enfático que educado.
¡Niños: haced el favor de callaros! (That is not "Kids, please shut up!" but more on the line of "Kids, shut the f. up!" at least in Spain.)

During and event, let's say the Oscars...
Please, welcome Mr...
Démosle la bienvenida a... (No "please" used)

My view is that the use of "please" in Spanish is heavily replaced by the tone, subjunctive verbs, etc., and a polite attitude...

As far as "Gracias" goes, I think it goes with each person... but Conde Lucanor, (Juan Manuel) wrote it way back when... "De hombres bien nacidos es el ser agradecidos"...

Gracias por el vídeo... (muy ilustrativo) y gracias a todos por participar en este hilo...

Por favor, rogamos a todos que sigan dando sus opiniones que serán tomadas en alta estima...

(Note that when in Spanish I start to use the "por favor", my feeling is that my communication is "too" flattery, and less sincere. So, besides the linguistic aspect, I think there is also some ingredient of ethnics involved on the matter, i.e., some extra-linguistics aspects...) (This can be a subjective feeling, but sometimes, you don't have to be formally polite to be polite, as long as you grant the person you are talking to enough importance and value, as the person really have...)

At any rate, these are my on the matter. Thank you for reading!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by JPablo

¿No sería "Si me pasas la sal"? (Sin tilde)
En España se podría usar así.
Lo común, "Me pasarías la sal" bastante educado, sin usar "por favor".

No, definitivamente usan "sí", con acento. Como dije, degeneró de una pésima interpretación de una fórmula de cortesía. No se usa entre personas que se consideran "bien educadas", pero se escucha con demasiada frecuencia en la calle.


I agree with the statement that one can be polite without using specific words, and that the tone one uses also determines a polite or impolite intention. Still, as the use of "por favor" and "gracias" are simple and direct, they're always useful and said with the right intonation will be enough for a foreigner to be understood.

[JPablo]

Yes, understood...
Wow! this usage of "Sí me pasas la sal" reads on my book rather impolite (and even incorrect...)
(In Spain it would be something like, "Que me pases la sal, ¡co*o!")

In an attempt of coup on February 23rd, 1981, (the "tejerazo") the Colonel Tejero Molina yelled to all the members of the Parliament, "Que se sienten, ¡co*o!", after bursting in the chamber... that level of 'education'...

[chileno]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Yes, understood...
Wow! this usage of "Sí me pasas la sal" reads on my book rather impolite (and even incorrect...)
(In Spain it would be something like, "Que me pases la sal, ¡co*o!")

In an attempt of coup on February 23rd, 1981, (the "tejerazo") the Colonel Tejero Molina yelled to all the members of the Parliament, "Que se sienten, ¡co*o!", after bursting in the chamber... that level of 'education'...

Es otra manera de preguntar "¿Me pasas la sal? ¿Sí?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Pablo: Exactamente así suena.

@Chileno: El orden de los factores sí altera el producto.
El "sí" interrogativo al final suaviza la frase, mientras que el afirmativo al principio ocasiona el mismo efecto de la frase de Pablo.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Pablo: Exactamente así suena.

@Chileno: El orden de los factores sí altera el producto.
El "sí" interrogativo al final suaviza la frase, mientras que el afirmativo al principio ocasiona el mismo efecto de la frase de Pablo.

Correcto. Solo que la gente lo dice así y cree que está siendo educada. Tratando de explicar lo mismo que tú, pero de otra manera sin ser efectivo en mi intento.

[JPablo]

Es que cada vez hay menos educancia... digo, educación...

[ookami]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Es que cada vez hay menos educancia... digo, educación...

Yo creo que no es que haya menos educación, sino que hay más gente, y siempre la mayoría fue estúpida. Hay más mayoría.

No sé sabe por qué, recuerdo en este momento dos línes de una película (Slepers)
-¿Por qué es que te gustan las palomas? (dirigiendose a un capo mafioso que estaba alimentando palomas en la plaza)
-Amo todo lo que no habla.

[chileno]

La educación especialmente la académica no tiene nada que ver con la estupidez.

Several political names come to mind.