Formal vs. informal

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by SPX

That sounds like you think there was some sort of conspiracy. . .

Not at all, you are simply pointing personal anecdotes as a selector between formal and informal ways, even when that distinction is not so quite when it involves just pronouns. In some countries like Guatemala, "tú" stands in an intermediate position between "vos" and "usted" so "tú" has enough formality built in it, a sort "cordial formality". That is true to some 10-12% Spanish speakers in seven or eight countries.

Originally Posted by SPX

I chalked it up to the flow of machismo among young males in Guatemalan culture. Being "too polite" to another young person might be perceived as soft/weak/feminine, and therefore "gay," which I think in that country is even more of a pejorative among young males than it is in the United States.

That happens everywhere, including the States. Using "usted" among youths is weird, so the one who uses it must be weird him or herself. If a "he", as it would be an extremely educated and demure way to treat his fellows, he must be gay. Youngsters also use "usted" to address the elder and the authorities, so, if they address their mates as "usted" they are subordinating to them like a beta dog to an alpha one, so, again, they must be gay, as they are "doing the split" gratuitously -so it has to be willingly-. This is true most of all if they are between ages from 8 to 16, when people behave as a primitive bunch and half of them feels the need to file down all the homo-something burrs of their developing egos. If kept at an age of 18, 20, 25 or 30, that is not "machismo" but a puerile state of mind. Cultural promotion of that doesn't make it less puerile, and it also doesn't make less true the wicked saying "el que lo parece, lo es, y el que no, también".

I wonder what had all of this to do with the formal-informal axis in Spanish. Then, I repeat "Yes, sure. Formal language was invented to convey gayness ."

Originally Posted by Caballero

Even in informal dialogue?

Do you know of any free ebooks from Argentina on the internet? I want to compare them to books from Spain and Mexico and see how the word choice differs. Or do they just write books (even ones not for meant to be published internationally) in some sort of neutral Spanish that is impossible to place? I heard that in Andalusia, Spain, for instance, people deliberately write in the standard Spanish of Spain, and follow all of those conventions instead, so maybe they do the same in Argentina.

You keep changing the subject -the topic in consideration-, the subject -of your analysis- and the object -purpose- without ever knowing. Books in Argentina first, books from Argentina later. A book from Argentina and the Internet is quite an oxymoron. Perhaps, you may reword your question, as you are writing in your native language, and state what you are talking about, authors? editors? public? media?

[Caballero]

I meant a published novel, that is gratis and available in an electronic format online. Or you could just tell me, if a book is written in Argentina, is it written in Argentine Spanish, or in some sort of Neutral Spanish, including the dialog?

[aleCcowaN]

You may watch Argentine movies, as Argentine characters almost always speak using "vos" all the time, and "usted" when it fits. About "books", I don't know. The last I read from Argentine author and editor was the "El anatomista" by Federico Andahazi, a pretty famous contemporary book. I don't remember having read any "vos" there, unless a reverential "vos" that is a highly formal and dated form of "vos" that doesn't conjugate the same way at all. Obviously, it comes from the settling. It can be said safely that any book from both Argentine author and editor that depicts contemporary local dialogues use "vos" and "usted"; this is also partially true for most historic local dramas. About more international topics it predominates "tú" or a mix of both pronouns -unless it's a kid's book-. I can't imagine a book about Mars with "vos" in it. The "vos" is from some specif place, so it has nothing to do with Mars; the "tú" is from no specific place, so it fits well everywhere. Those "places" are cultural or psychological, not geographical.

[Caballero]

About more international topics it predominates"tú" or a mix of both pronoun

So would the distinction be like in Guatemala then?

And when did tú die out as a pronoun in Argentina?

[SPX]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I wonder what had all of this to do with the formal-informal axis in Spanish. Then, I repeat "Yes, sure. Formal language was invented to convey gayness ."

Well it should be clear. The thread starter said that he/she was unclear on when to use the informal and formal pronouns (and presumably also verb forms). In Spanish classes here in the US--even when you are a teenager--you are basically taught that, unless the person you are talking to is a child, if you don't know the person you should always use the formal forms.

Well, I was simply pointing out that, while that is what we learn in classrooms it's not always true in the native cultures from which the language originates. Taking what you learn in the classroom into the real world can sometimes lead to awkward situations.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Caballero

So would the distinction be like in Guatemala then?

I would say that the pronoun is ethnic. A saga like Lord of the Rings would never have characters speaking with familiar "vos". It's a waste of pronouns to use it with outsiders. And the way I feel about it I think is the general one.

About distinctions you have to ask a Guatemalan. I know the uses a bit but not the feels. Certainly, I discovered recently the use of "vos" in Central American literature. Before I always have seen it used just for popular characters.

Originally Posted by Caballero

And when did tú die out as a pronoun in Argentina?

It never existed but in the language of people born in Spain. In America "vos" exists where social elites didn't promote "tú".

[Caballero]

So would you say that in general it's not possible to tell whether a book was written in Argentina, Guatemala, Mexico, or Spain?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Caballero

So would you say that in general it's not possible to tell whether a book was written in Argentina, Guatemala, Mexico, or Spain?

You probably could, but not just because of the second person pronoun.

As an example here you have my own experience on that -and the plague of threads started without a context in language forums-. In post #9 I "spot" the nationality -not quite-.