Ejercicio 14-3 (Passive voice with "se")

[laepelba]

The exercise involved the following translation exercises:

6) They should make these maps clearer. You can't read this!
The book's answer: Se debe hacer más claro estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer eso!
My question: I wrote "Se debe hacer estos mapas más claro." Is this also okay?

9) People should brush their teeth after eating.
The book's answer: Se debe cepillar los dientes después de comer.
My question: Why isn't it "cepillarse"?

Thanks for any help you can give me!!

[wrholt]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The exercise involved the following translation exercises:

6) They should make these maps clearer. You can't read this!
The book's answer: Se debe hacer más claro estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer eso!
My question: I wrote "Se debe hacer estos mapas más claro." Is this also okay?

From Butt & Benjamin, 4th ed, section 31.3.8, either order is normal and acceptable in Spanish. However, if other things in addition to "estos mapas" is in the sentences then the order "se debe hacer más claro estos mapas, ...".

Originally Posted by laepelba

9) People should brush their teeth after eating.
The book's answer: Se debe cepillar los dientes después de comer.
My question: Why isn't it "cepillarse"?

Thanks for any help you can give me!!

"Se debe cepillar los dientes..."

The sentence has impersonal 'se' before 'deber': you cannot have a second 'se' after 'cepillar'.

An alternative to "se debe cepillar los dientes" is "uno debe cepillarse los dientes" = "one/you/everyone should brush his/her/your/their teeth".

The subject of "debe cepillarse los dientes" must be specific and definite: it's really "(él/ella/usted) debe cepillarse los dientes".

[Don José]

6) They should make these maps clearer. You can't read this!
The book's answer: Se debe hacer más claro estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer eso!

this: este, esta, esto.
that: ese, esa, eso, aquel, aquella, aquello.

Se deben hacer más claros estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer esto!

A more natural translation:

Deberían hacer estos mapas más claros (o más claros estos mapas). ¡No se puede leer esto!

9) People should brush their teeth after eating.

Se deben cepillar los dientes después de comer.
Deben cepillarse los dientes después de comer.

I would agree with a singular verb if a singular subject were used, for example, translating the original "people" as "gente":

La gente se debe cepillar los dientes ...

[aleCcowaN]

Again, the book seems to be not very "native".

6) In a colloquial setting both are OK, but "más claro" is "el hacer" and "más claros" is "los mapas". Your answer "los mapas más claro" is a tiny little bit more difficult to parse, but it's still OK.

9) The book's answer -and yours- are, in some degree, artificial and difficult to parse, as the construction suggests that the teeth have such an obligation, though our life experience prevents us from following that path. In real Spanish "hay" takes the place: "Hay que cepillarse los dientes después de comer". "Hay" is even a special conjugation of "haber" that differs in meaning from "ha" and it's the best match from impersonal "you should".

[laepelba]

Okay - first of all, I shouldn't type these questions when I'm in a hurry. Both things pointed out about the book were actually Lou Ann mistakes in typing: the book actually says "Se debe hacer más claros estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer esto!" Thanks for pointing out my mistakes!!

As far as the examples being a bit artificial, I think that these exercise books are looking for long lists of examples & exercises that isolate a certain skill and run out of quality ones... This skill was particularly "using se to indicate an impersonal subject". They went to great lengths in the text of the section to point out that the verb is always singular when the "se <<verb>>" is used for an impersonal subject, and they contrasted that with the English, where we often say "people do/should/etc." or "they do/should/etc." or "one does/should/etc." and conjugate the verb accordingly. Don José - do you think it might be a regionalism to use "se deben" (etc.) instead of "se debe"?

Thank you all for your time!!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The exercise involved the following translation exercises:

6) They should make these maps clearer. You can't read this!
The book's answer: Se debe hacer más claro estos mapas. ¡No se puede leer eso!
My question: I wrote "Se debe hacer estos mapas más claro." Is this also okay?

9) People should brush their teeth after eating.
The book's answer: Se debe cepillar los dientes después de comer.
My question: Why isn't it "cepillarse"?

Thanks for any help you can give me!!

This is what they should be translated to:


6) They should make these maps clearer. You can't read this! = Debieran/deberían (ellos) hacer estos mapas más claro. ¡(Tú) No puedes leer esto!

9) People should brush their teeth after eating. = La gente debiera/debería cepillarse los dientes después de comer.

[Don José]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Don José - do you think it might be a regionalism to use "se deben" (etc.) instead of "se debe"?

i don't know. I found that both "deben" and " se deben" can be used in htis link:

http://www.elcastellano.org/consulta...g=pasiva&Pag=3

But acoording to this link, the plural is better:

La norma recomienda sistemáticamente el plural en los ejemplos que siguen: Allí se {pueden/puede} coger flores.
No se debería(n) sacar las basuras a estas horas.

http://hispanoteca.eu/gram%C3%A1tica...ncordancia.htm

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

The Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas and I also agree that both formulas can be used for this case:

One way is an impersonal sentence:
·Se debe hacer más claros estos mapas. / Se debe hacer estos mapas más claros. (First one preferred to the other for euphony reasons.)

The other is voz pasiva refleja:
·Se deben hacer estos mapas con mayor claridad.

[Rusty]

Agree with Angélica.

The sentence with 'se debe' is an example of the impersonal 'se'. 'One should' is the better translation to use so that you can see that the 'you', 'people', or 'they' that we use in English are impersonal usages (they don't single out individuals).

The sentence with 'se deben' is an example of the voz pasiva refleja. The verb agrees in number with the subject (estos mapas).