imperfect subjunctive with the sequence of tenses

[Nfqufktc]

¡Hola!
I would appreciate it if you could resolve my doubts with regard to the following discrepancy:

While for the present time frame both authors concur that the verb in the subordinate clause REFERS TO A PAST ACTION (its remoteness notwithstanding),
For the past time frame the author of Manual #1 says that the verb in the subordinate clause refers TO AN EVENT YET TO OCCUR.

Would you comment on this?

Thank you.

[aleCcowaN]

Take those grammar manuals and burn them. They seem written by the typical political refugees who fled Spain during Franco's regime and were welcome in Eastern Europe, in the time they believed a language called español existed and was made in Spain, trying to impose absurd grammatical concoctions to 97% of Spanish speakers in the World, including most of the Spaniards. Thank Darwin, the Nueva Gramática published some 15 years ago made all that crap something belonging to the past.

Creo que (ella) vino.
Creo que (ella) no vino.

The notion is in the mind of the speaker, therefore indicative.

No creo que (ella) haya venido

The notion is not in the mind of the speaker, therefore subjunctive.

[assertively]No creo que (ella) haya venido

here the speaker is sure about what they believe and pretty sure about the likelihood of the believed thing

[with evident changes un intonation] Mmmno ... no creo que (ella) viniera

here the speaker offers a conjecture as they think the fact is just likely.

The speaker could utter the last phrase in an assertive fashion, implying the meaning of the previous phrase, but that, although possible, is not the cleanest way of using moods and tenses.

Creía que (ella) había venido
Creía que (ella) vendría/habría de venir

In his mind ----> indicative
First phrase ----> coming happens before believing
Second phrase ----> believing happens before the act of coming

No creía que ella hubiera venido
No creía que ella fuera a venir

Not in his mind ---> subjunctive
Same about first and second example

When the future is involved, using indicative or subjunctive for a thing you don't believe becomes sort of inmaterial, so you could say instead

No creía que (ella) habría de venir
No creía que (ella) vendría
No creía que (ella) hubiera de venir
No creía que (ella) viniera

The last one is the "catch all" phrase, as imperfect subjunctive has a lot of indicative uses, for instance, as a conditional in

Lo hubiera hecho si lo hubiese sabido

Those hacks of the past I mentioned, including the refugees, hubieran puesto el grito en el cielo al no ver en su lugar

Lo habría hecho si lo hubiera/se sabido

when probably

Lo hubiera hecho, de haberlo sabido

was, is and will be the most frequent usage among educated native speakers

This is just about the left column. Tomorrow, maybe, I'll comment on the right column.

[aleCcowaN]

The right side is easy

No creo que fuera culpable, pero ya no importa porque lo ejecutaron.

Nadie creía que era culpable, pero igual lo ejecutaron. (in their minds, indicative)

<por esos tiempos/esa época> No creía que fuera culpable, pero probaron sobradamente que lo era (not in my, his, her, your-formal- mind, subjunctive)

<en ese momento>No creí que fuera culpable, y sigo sin creerlo.

Past simple or imperfect is just a matter of context. Don't read too much from it.

No creí que era culpable. ¡Qué equivocado que estaba!

The use of indicative in the last example anticipates that I changed my mind or I was proven to be wrong about it.

[Nfqufktc]

Wow, this is as detailed as it could possibly be. It will take some time to digest this. Thank you very much.

I have never heard about the Nueva Gramática before. I will try to get it. But I presume it's in Spanish. Nevertheless I'll see if I am able to handle it. Thank you again for the prompt.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Nfqufktc

Wow, this is as detailed as it could possibly be. It will take some time to digest this. Thank you very much.

I have never heard about the Nueva Gramática before. I will try to get it. But I presume it's in Spanish. Nevertheless I'll see if I am able to handle it. Thank you again for the prompt.

You can read it or search within it here for free.

Two warnings:

Its content is almost out of reach for a last-year high-school student who is a native speaker. A solid command of the language is needed to understand all its topics and subtleties.

This work is a gramática descriptiva and not a gramática normativa. It kills all previous pretensions of imposing everyone "the right way" and reach uniformity.

You could try it by reading just points 25.14 i, j, k, l ,m and n. They deal with the selection of mode with expressions like quizá and a lo/la mejor.

You could read all the basics of verbs in chapters 22 to 28, or better and shorter, see much of it in action in chapter 47 about conditional sentences.