Debe vs. Debe de

[workingmom20]

When should you use Debe and when should you use Debe de,
tambien,
hay alguien aqui que sepa adonde puedo encontrar un website de escritura en Espanol. I feel that I really need to work on my grammar and sentence structures.

[Rusty]

Both are used. Some adherents of the language insist on the presence of the preposition.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

"Deber" id used when something must be some way.
"Deber de" is used when one makes a guess about something one expects to be some way.


Debo terminar mi trabajo esta tarde.
I must finish my work this afternoon.

Había demasiados errores en mi trabajo. Debo de haberme distraído.
There were too many errors in my work. I must have been distracted.

Debes ir a ver a tu madre al hospital.
You must go and see your mother in the hospital.

Encontré a la señora inconsciente en el suelo. Debe de haberse caído de la escalera.
I found the lady unconscious on the floor. She must have fallen from the stairs.

[laepelba]

WorkingMom - I like this thread ... and am going to follow it. I wonder if you could also ask the second question in a separate thread? I think it would be more likely to get thorough answers that way.

[bmarquis124]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

Debo terminar mi trabajo esta tarde.
I must finish my work this afternoon.

Debes ir a ver a tu madre al hospital.
You must go and see your mother in the hospital.

I always thought deber meant 'should' but in these examples, should and must come across differently. So how would you say should instead of must?

[poli]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

"Deber" id used when something must be some way.
"Deber de" is used when one makes a guess about something one expects to be some way.


Debo terminar mi trabajo esta tarde.
I must finish my work this afternoon.

Había demasiados errores en mi trabajo. Debo de haberme distraído.
There were too many errors in my work. I must have been distracted.

Debes ir a ver a tu madre al hospital.
You must go and see your mother in the hospital.

Encontré a la señora inconsciente en el suelo. Debe de haberse caído de la escalera.
I found the lady unconscious on the floor. She must have fallen from the stairs.

You're a good teacher. deber +de+haberse has a specific meaning that
I have heard in speech but never quite contrued it. Thank you.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by bmarquis124

I always thought deber meant 'should' but in these examples, should and must come across differently. So how would you say should instead of must?

Debiera or deberia?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by bmarquis124

I always thought deber meant 'should' but in these examples, should and must come across differently. So how would you say should instead of must?

There are no automatic translations, but I agree with Hernán that "debería" is a good one for this kind of sentences.


It's late. I should be finishing my work by now.
Es tarde. Ya debería de estar terminando mi trabajo.

You shouldn't be so rude.
No deberías ser tan grosero.


@Poli: Thank you.
Just a little note: it's not only "deber de" + haberse...

El teléfono suena. Debe de ser Juan.
The telephone is ringing. It must be Juan.

Son las siete. La tienda ya debe de estar cerrada.
It's already seven o'clock. The store must be already closed.

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

There are no automatic translations, but I agree with Hernán that "debería" is a good one for this kind of sentences.


It's late. I should be finishing my work by now.
Es tarde. Ya debería de estar terminando mi trabajo.

You shouldn't be so rude.
No deberías ser tan grosero.


@Poli: Thank you.
Just a little note: it's not only "deber de" + haberse...

El teléfono suena. Debe de ser Juan.
The telephone is ringing. It must be Juan.

Son las siete. La tienda ya debe de estar cerrada.
It's already seven o'clock. The store must be already closed.

Hi Malila. I was also confused by the "must have been" construction and I posted the question in another thread. David answered:

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

Learn this construction and you'll be fine:

El cuarto debió estar muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.
The room must have been really dirty because when she came out she was covered with dust.

So...

must have been = deber (in preterit) + estar (infinitive)

I must have been crazy ... = debí estar loco ...

Are these just different approaches to saying the same thing?

Thanks

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Tacuba: *ouch!*

I'm sure David must have a reason to avoid the preposition, but I would have used "deber de" in both cases.

El cuarto debió de estar muy sucio porque...

Debí de estar loco./Debí de haber estado loco.


...I was taught to differenciate the duty and the supposition this way.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by tacuba

Hi Malila. I was also confused by the "must have been" construction and I posted the question in another thread. David answered:


Are these just different approaches to saying the same thing?

Thanks

Right, but look at these:


El cuarto debió estar muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.
The room must have been really dirty because when she came out she was covered with dust.


El cuarto debe haber estado muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.

So...

must have been = deber (in preterit) + estar (infinitive)

I must have been crazy ... = debí estar loco ...


Debo haber estado loco.

I = yo

must =deber

have = tener/haber

been = estado/sido

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Tacuba: *ouch!*

I'm sure David must have a reason to avoid the preposition, but I would have used "deber de" in both cases.

El cuarto debió de estar muy sucio porque...

Debí de estar loco./Debí de haber estado loco.


...I was taught to differenciate the duty and the supposition this way.

Gracias Malila, pero ¿por qué "ouch"?

Me confundo con la ausencia de "haber" en las frases "El cuarto debió de estar sucio...." y "Debí de estar loco."

Lo de "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have" en español me vuelve loco.

Gracias por la ayuda

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Right, but look at these:

El cuarto debió estar muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.
The room must have been really dirty because when she came out she was covered with dust.

El cuarto debe haber estado muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.

Debo haber estado loco.

I = yo

must =deber

have = tener/haber

been = estado/sido

Hola Chileno. Entonces ¿los dos son correctos? "El cuarto debió de estar..." y "El cuarto debe haber estado...."?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by tacuba

Hola Chileno. Entonces ¿los dos son correctos? "El cuarto debió de estar..." y "El cuarto debe haber estado...."?

El primero deberia ser

el cuarto debió haber estado...

El cuarto debe haber estado...

See the difference with el cuarto debio de estar...?

It is not what those phrases in English mean. See?

Been = sido/estado (Participle)

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by tacuba

Gracias Malila, pero ¿por qué "ouch"?

Me confundo con la ausencia de "haber" en las frases "El cuarto debió de estar sucio...." y "Debí de estar loco."

Lo de "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have" en español me vuelve loco.

Gracias por la ayuda

"Ouch" porque no me resulta muy fácil explicar cosas que para mí son naturales, y menos aún cuando puede haber una discrepancia con ejemplos contrarios.

Se podría haber dicho "El cuarto debió de haber estado sucio", pero "debió de estar sucio" es más breve. Insisto en el uso de la preposición porque se está haciendo una conjetura, no se enuncia un deber.

En cuanto a "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have", depende del contexto, pero aquí van unos ejemplos:


I should have finished my work, but I had been playing solitaire instead.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo, pero más bien estuve jugando solitario.

I would have finished my work if my boss hadn't been calling me every five minutes.
Hubiera/habría terminado mi trabajo si mi jefe no me hubiera estado llamando cada 5 minutos.

I must have finished my work in three days, but it's been over a week I started doing it.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo en tres días, pero ya pasó una semana desde que lo empecé.

I must have finished my work and I didn't realise it. (Ok, a bit crazy, but just to have a "debe de" example)
Debo de haber terminado mi trabajo y no me dí cuenta.

I could have finished my work (I had enough time to do it), but I received an urgent call in the afternoon (and had to go out).
Podría haber terminado mi trabajo (tenía tiempo suficiente para hacerlo), pero recibí una llamada urgente en la tarde (y tuve que salir).

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

"Ouch" porque no me resulta muy fácil explicar cosas que para mí son naturales, y menos aún cuando puede haber una discrepancia con ejemplos contrarios.

Se podría haber dicho "El cuarto debió de haber estado sucio", pero "debió de estar sucio" es más breve. Insisto en el uso de la preposición porque se está haciendo una conjetura, no se enuncia un deber.

En cuanto a "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have", depende del contexto, pero aquí van unos ejemplos:


I should have finished my work, but I had been playing solitaire instead.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo, pero más bien estuve jugando solitario.

I would have finished my work if my boss hadn't been calling me every five minutes.
Hubiera/habría terminado mi trabajo si mi jefe no me hubiera estado llamando cada 5 minutos.

I must have finished my work in three days, but it's been over a week I started doing it.
Debí/debería debiera haber terminado mi trabajo en tres días, pero ya pasó una semana desde que lo empecé.

I must have finished my work and I didn't realise it. (Ok, a bit crazy, but just to have a "debe de" example)
Debo de haber terminado mi trabajo y no me dí cuenta.

I could have finished my work (I had enough time to do it), but I received an urgent call in the afternoon (and had to go out).
Podría haber terminado mi trabajo (tenía tiempo suficiente para hacerlo), pero recibí una llamada urgente en la tarde (y tuve que salir).

La unica que pienso que esta mal traducida es la que esta en rojo. Por que? Porque no es condicional.

[Tomisimo]

The difference between "deber de" and "deber" is tenuous and extremely dialectal. I have literally asked dozens of native speakers over the years because this has been a question of mine for some time. Some native speakers say there are different uses for "deber" and "deber de"; others are emphatic that there is no difference. So I guess it comes down to dialectal differences; Choose the dialect you want to learn and learn it. For all intents and purposes, both are the same or very similar, but it really depends on where you are and who you are talking with.

Probably the most versatile translation for "must have been" is "debe haber estado/sido".

What Malila says-- that one is used for supposition and the other for duty-- probably applies to most of central Mexico and Mexico City.

Other native speakers have said there is absolutely no difference. For example:

Debe estar en la tienda.
Debe de estar en la tienda.
He is (supposed to/needs to/must) be in the store. [obligation]

Debe estar en la tienda.
Debe de estar en la tienda.
He (must be/probably is) in the store. [supposition]

Both sentences can have both meanings, the difference is in the intonation and how you say the sentence. For obligation, the spoken stress is on "debe", and for supposition, it's said more like a question, with the stress more on "tienda".

Anyway, that's my I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

[Rusty]

That's what I tried to say with my short post. Some people insist on using the preposition where others say it isn't needed and some say both are correct usages at those times when one form is chosen over another.

Learn it the way the people use it in the area you live in.

[irmamar]

Maybe there are both ways of telling this, but the correct way is what Angelica said.

[poli]

It's back to presciptive and discriptive grammar.
I have heard deber de sentences where it clearly meant "should" rather than strong "have to", and I never paid attention to it until these posts. It makes sense to me that deber without the de is much more imperative.

Just read these two examples, and you will pick up the fine difference in meaning.
Debo ir al médico. (I have a lump on the side of my neck)
Debo de ir al médico (It's been a year)

Thanks to the person who asked the question, and thanks to all who responded.