Una Pregunta

[chileno]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In my view, having the opportunity to learn the system of a language that one speaks is a very illuminating way of avoiding this type of ignorance.

You are right. However, it has to do with the person's level of education and whole lot of other things, such as interests...

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In my native language I adore knowing things, such as, for example, the fact that 'por qué' is used in interrogatives, 'porque' for statements in a subordinate clause and 'porqué' is a noun.

That's good. others like to know how things work, and while they might not be able to communicate in the same way and at the same level as you do, they accomplish their interests.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

These are basic notions which not everyone masters or is capable of explaining the reasons why, and those who are unable to do so are also those who have no idea of grammar, thus they are not making mistakes (which stem from a failure in performance and can be self-corrected) they are actually making errors (which are caused by a faulty or incomplete learning of the language system).

Ok, do you think all doctor in your country or for that matter in the whole world express flawlessly themselves in their own language, and are they at the same level of proficiency in their language as you are in yours?

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

This seems quite decadent, doesn't it? (I am talking about adults performing their native language, not about children because for them, errors are actually necessary and unavoidable).

But that's how things are in the world.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Of course, if one lacks this competence in his own language...what will be his fateful destiny in a second language?

Depends.

I completed my 12th grade in Chile and I express myself fairly well in Spanish. Not as good as you, but better than a lot a of others that also completed their twelfth grade, before, with and after me.

I would like to think that I have a certain degree of proficiency in English as well.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In my second language, taking into account the random use of word order in my native language, I believe it's paramount, for instance, to know that the equation Subject + verb + object is invariable, and thus you cannot say: 'I am taking with me tonight my CD's'.

Right. However, if you are corrected once, twice, thrice...and you still do the same mistake...

Like I said, is a matter of the person's education and interest.


After all, if I speak badly my own language, at least it is expected of me to do the same thing in in the other language. But like the native people.

Ain't that peachy?

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

However, in practice, it seems that this lack of knowledge only influence the speed at which you eventually acquire correct forms through the processes of 'hypothesis formation and testing', so you may never acquire certain things!!

True, which anyone could remedy by going to school and getting proper grammar classes. You should be able to read it and speak it by then.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

@Chileno, excuse me if I may offend you but it's hard for me to believe that you were as much proficient in English (with no basis) as in Spanish in only two years' exposure to your second language, unless you were a child.

No offense taken. I hope this helps someone or everybody and start to "see" what i am saying.

No. What I said was that I felt comfortable with English, and at a point where I could actually go to school to acquire grammar and make the best of it. In two years period I think I converted my Spanish vocabulary to English, at least most of what I knew and remembered. There are words that I still get to translate that I had not heard previously or just plainly learned. When I say learned is because I did not know it in Spanish to begin with.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

It's been 30 years since you started learning English, ain't it? Well, it has rained too many cats and dogs since then, if you let me use an euphemism! (I mean you don't probably remember the extent to which you learnt or not!).

For the most part, I still remember everything. It is like a movie I have in my head. I remember words that were difficult to assimilate because they were not used like in Spanish, for example "actually <> en realidad" etc...

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Let me ask you something, how old were you when you went abroad and what previous contact had you had with English?

I was 25 years old. (Patiño ya no era un niño)

So, to recap:

I completed 12th grade and I purportedly can read, write and speak Spanish and English.

What should be done with people who have not completed 12th grade and they speak their own language better or worse than I?

I am talking for people all over the world.

What should be done with people who have their doctorates in their professions but speak better or worse that I, in their own language.

Take a special note on the people who speak worse than I in their own language.

I know for a fact that many professionals, in their countries, have been working in casinos here in Las Vegas for years in menial jobs because of their "incompetence" in getting/acquiring the English language. However, they were "competent" enough to go to university and get their degrees.

Whether they spoke "proficiently" their native language or not.

hmmm?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

Right. However, if you are corrected once, twice, thrice...and you still do the same mistake...

Nice post, and I love the thrice. By the way, one makes mistakes.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Nice post, and I love the thrice. By the way, one makes mistakes.

Right, and I know better...

[CarmenCarmona]

To begin with, I must say that your post is too much for me!! Let's summarize:

Yeah, I guess it depends on people's interests...

Sorry, I don't know what is the equivalence of 12th grade! haha

So tell me, why do you state that your Spanish is not that good? and, if that is the case, what led you to acquire English in a different way? (In this, it is explicit that you are pretty proficient in your L2!)

In my university, if you make more than I-don't-know-how-many spelling mistakes (around 5, I think), even in English, either you cannot pass the exam or you are penalised. I suppose it's the same in all universities, is it?

I would also like to point out the role that individual differences play for SLA to take place, such as age (number of years's exposure, starting age...), sex (females are usually superior but maybe Chileno is another cattle of fish! haha), aptitude (an innate talent for learning languages at an amazing speed), intelligence (which is advantageous mainly for formal study), motivation (integrative or instrumental) and the effective use of strategies.

[irmamar]

Don't forget an important and physiological thing: the second language (unless you are a genuine bilingual person) is stored in another area in the brain. So, connections are already made and we must supply those new connections a child build into his/her brain, with another connections that we made before, such as logic and grammar. Any other thing would be memory. There are new connections in the brain when one is an adult, but much less than when one is a child.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

sex (females are usually superior but maybe Chileno is another cattle of fish! haha),

*cough* kettle of fish

Originally Posted by irmamar

Don't forget an important and physiological thing: the second language (unless you are a genuine bilingual person) is stored in another area in the brain.

This is really interesting - do you have any references about this?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

So tell me, why do you state that your Spanish is not that good? and, if that is the case, what led you to acquire English in a different way? (In this, it is explicit that you are pretty proficient in your L2!)

I think it has been established already that I do not know grammar in neither Spanish nor English language. Perikles, Irma, Rusty and David can vouch for that.

When I came to the US I started immediately going to ESL classes, but the teacher wanted us, the students, to hold hands and sing the alphabet and she also told me " This is your nose...This is your eye...That is a window...that is a door", needles to say, in two weeks i was out of there, as all that made me feel like a kid going to school all over again. It wasn't the fact that I knew or not the words being said "taught" but that form the class was imparted.

Not long after that I started working at a sandwich place and I was having problems in understanding the clients, so I decided to write in Spanish what I wanted to say, then translate word by word to English. As you can see not the most sophisticated way to do things but I got understood and I communicated with people who would even correct me, etc... , and by doing that I realized that I needed to utilize what I already knew in Spanish and apply it to English. Very simple. That's how I got ahead and developed my own method which led me to acquire English, within my level, of course.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In my university, if you make more than I-don't-know-how-many spelling mistakes (around 5, I think), even in English, either you cannot pass the exam or you are penalised. I suppose it's the same in all universities, is it?

What prompted to say all this about your university. Did I make mistakes in my writing and this is your way to let me know, or is this a non-sequitur...?

I know I made mistakes, and that's because i am writing on a laptop, which I do not like,. most of the time I am talking to other people, so my attention is not dedicated only to the writing. And lastly, this is not an educational institution. Besides, even the most learned in here have made, and will be making mistakes. With that in mind, I selsom make a correction if I think it was a typo.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

I would also like to point out the role that individual differences play for SLA to take place, such as age (number of years's exposure, starting age...), sex (females are usually superior but maybe Chileno is another cattle of fish! haha), aptitude (an innate talent for learning languages at an amazing speed), intelligence (which is advantageous mainly for formal study), motivation (integrative or instrumental) and the effective use of strategies.

I consider myself on the lower end of the scale...

Originally Posted by irmamar

Don't forget an important and physiological thing: the second language (unless you are a genuine bilingual person) is stored in another area in the brain. So, connections are already made and we must supply those new connections a child build into his/her brain, with another connections that we made before, such as logic and grammar. Any other thing would be memory. There are new connections in the brain when one is an adult, but much less than when one is a child.

Exactly. So that's why you have to take advantage of what you already know in Spanish.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

Cita:
Escrito originalmente por CarmenCarmona
I would also like to point out the role that individual differences play for SLA to take place, such as age (number of years's exposure, starting age...), sex (females are usually superior but maybe Chileno is another cattle of fish! haha), aptitude (an innate talent for learning languages at an amazing speed), intelligence (which is advantageous mainly for formal study), motivation (integrative or instrumental) and the effective use of strategies.

I consider myself on the lower end of the scale...

Exactly which of the above scales?

Seriously though, your motivation must have been at the very high end of the scale, regardless of the others, because the result is impressive (sometimes).

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Exactly which of the above scales?

Seriously though, your motivation must have been at the very high end of the scale, regardless of the others, because the result is impressive (sometimes).

Motivation as far as wanting to do a good job at it, but latter I fizzled...

Well, I became disillusioned.

I have never considered myself more intelligent than others, on the contrary. So by "knowing" this I push myself to be extra careful and pay extra attention to details, when in "learning" mode.

I have met people who hold/held a degree in their countries and have gone to school for 3 or four years straight, without missing a day, just to shy out of school adducing the English language is hard to learn, and /or that they are too old to learn etc...

??!!

To me, these people were highly motivated and the fact of going to school for a number of years without missing a single day shows it. Are/were they less or not intelligent enough? I don't think so.

I do not have an explanation for this. Maybe Carmen could enlighten us, since she has studied this theme.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

I have never considered myself more intelligent than others, on the contrary. So by "knowing" this I push myself to be extra careful and pay extra attention to details, when in "learning" mode. .

Recognition of your limits is a sign of intelligence. The really stupid don't see it.

Originally Posted by chileno

I have met people who hold/held a degree in their countries and have gone to school for 3 or four years straight, without missing a day, ...To me, these people were highly motivated and the fact of going to school for a number of years without missing a single day shows it. Are/were they less or not intelligent enough? I don't think so.

I don't think one can separate motivation and intelligence very easily, and intelligence is difficult to define anyway. I await comments from others....

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

*cough* kettle of fish

This is really interesting - do you have any references about this?

Look here. I'm sure you'll find an English article about it.

Originally Posted by chileno

Exactly. So that's why you have to take advantage of what you already know in Spanish.

I'm bilingual since I was a child. I already constructed my connections

It's essential to be aware of the benefits a second language provides to our brain. Furthermore if you are a genuine bilingual (I'm not, and it's a pity).

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Look here. I'm sure you'll find an English article about it.

Thanks - I can read it in Spanish, using a different and microscopic part of my brain.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Thanks - I can read it in Spanish, using a different and microscopic part of my brain.

I said that because it was studied by the journal Nature.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

*cough* kettle of fish

Kettle? Like 'tetera'?!
I thought 'cattle' was, in some way, more logical! But really I was just making a guess, that's what happens when you hear something and don't inquire into it!

Originally Posted by chileno

What prompted to say all this about your university. Did I make mistakes in my writing and this is your way to let me know, or is this a non-sequitur...?

Exactly. So that's why you have to take advantage of what you already know in Spanish.

Nooo! sorry for the misunderstanding, I mentioned that because you said there were people at college who didn't know much about their language and eventually finish their degree! did you mean that?

With respect to the second sentence...that's also using the transfer phenomenon as a language-learning and language-use strategy, though it might result in facilitation as well as in errors, avoidance and overuse of certain structures.

Originally Posted by chileno

To me, these people were highly motivated and the fact of going to school for a number of years without missing a single day shows it. Are/were they less or not intelligent enough? I don't think so.

I do not have an explanation for this. Maybe Carmen could enlighten us, since she has studied this theme.

It clearly depends on all of those internal factors I mentioned as well as on the great deal of external factors that they might have been affected by!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Kettle? Like 'tetera'?!
I thought 'cattle' was, in some way, more logical! But really I was just making a guess, that's what happens when you hear something and don't inquire into it!

A kettle can be anything you cook in, though usually understood for water. A fish kettle:

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Recognition of your limits is a sign of intelligence. The really stupid don't see it.

I think we see it but decide not to act upon it.

But seriously, learning does not have a whole lot to do with intelligence or highly intelligent. I knew a person with down syndrome. She was 18 or so when she came to this country, she was speaking English like nothing in couple of years, I don't know, 3 or 4 years? But she did it. And again, at her level.

How about that?

Originally Posted by Perikles

I don't think one can separate motivation and intelligence very easily, and intelligence is difficult to define anyway. I await comments from others....

Separate in telligence from motivation. Quite easily.

In your country, you go to university, work and have no worries about not understanding the language. you speak since childhood.

Some people do the same thing, but then decide to go to a foreing country in which the language is barrier. Some people freeze and cannot function at a normal level and they wither doing a menial job. They endure it because sometime the money and/or living conditions a bit better than in their own countries. Whatever these conditions might be.

Originally Posted by irmamar

I'm bilingual since I was a child. I already constructed my connections

It's essential to be aware of the benefits a second language provides to our brain. Furthermore if you are a genuine bilingual (I'm not, and it's a pity).

Well, are you bilingual or not.

I know, if I go to another country I'll acquire the language within a year. At my age!


I do not consider myself to be bilingual. I have a certain proficiency in both language, but isn't a high one, by a long shot.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Kettle? Like 'tetera'?!
I thought 'cattle' was, in some way, more logical! But really I was just making a guess, that's what happens when you hear something and don't inquire into it!

I thoght it was a "mind" typo... it happens.

But, all's good, you got corrected, and most likely you are going to forget your name, but not this incident involving a "kettle of fish"

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Nooo! sorry for the misunderstanding, I mentioned that because you said there were people at college who didn't know much about their language and eventually finish their degree! did you mean that?

Yes, but certainly, a person who goes to university will be better prepared in the native language, but certainly not at your level, or that of a person who is of the grammarian type.

Most university grads will not know much of grammar but will tend to express better in their native language. That's the point I was making.

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

With respect to the second sentence...that's also using the transfer phenomenon as a language-learning and language-use strategy, though it might result in facilitation as well as in errors, avoidance and overuse of certain structures.

It clearly depends on all of those internal factors I mentioned as well as on the great deal of external factors that they might have been affected by!

I am not sure about the second sentence you are referring to, but you are right about the factors that will affect a person.

To me there is only one, and I call it fear.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

A kettle can be anything you cook in, though usually understood for water. A fish kettle:

So did I use the idiom right? how would you translate it?

Originally Posted by chileno

But seriously, learning does not have a whole lot to do with intelligence or highly intelligent. I knew a person with down syndrome. She was 18 or so when she came to this country, she was speaking English like nothing in couple of years, I don't know, 3 or 4 years? But she did it. And again, at her level.

How about that?

people with down syndrom are actually more intelligent than we think but they are usually stimulated in different ways, I think.


Well, are you bilingual or not.

I think she means she also speaks Valencian or Catalan, am not sure!


I do not consider myself to be bilingual. I have a certain proficiency in both language, but isn't a high one, by a long shot.

Indeed you ARE bilingual (Although I think the same as you, deep down I know we are bilingual!)

I thoght it was a "mind" typo... it happens.

But, all's good, you got corrected, and most likely you are going to forget your name, but not this incident involving a "kettle of fish"

I don't know why I have just imagined myself being old and senile and shoutting: 'kettle of fish' haha


Yes, but certainly, a person who goes to university will be better prepared in the native language, but certainly not at your level, or that of a person who is of the grammarian type.

Most university grads will not know much of grammar but will tend to express better in their native language. That's the point I was making.

Ok! Well, at least here in Spain, they teach you grammar and syntax with a lot of...let's say 'emphasis' at high school. So it's not that am at college the reason why I'm acquainted with it. Therefore, all Spanish university students know about the subject.

So, where does that happen? in Chile or in America? (English grammar is far more complex than Spanish for a high school student, I think, even at college they just instruct us the 'simple' way to analyse sentences in English, so I can't imagine what the difficult way is like!)

I am not sure about the second sentence you are referring to, but you are right about the factors that will affect a person.

To me there is only one, and I call it fear.

Well, that actually makes sense because it is obvious that any human being can achieve whatever they are determined to, in one way or another.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

So did I use the idiom right? how would you translate it?

that's a different kettle of fish eso es harina de otro costal

It seems that a fish kettle is a besuguera

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

that's a different kettle of fish eso es harina de otro costal

It seems that a fish kettle is a besuguera

So it means 'that's a totally different issue' right? (Qué raros q son los idioms de las narices!)

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by chileno

Well, are you bilingual or not.

A genuine bilingual is somebody who learns two (or more) languages at the same time (and I didn't). My little brother is a genuine bilingual, he learnt two languages at the same time and we used to mix both languages for a long time (and we all used to speak in the same way at home -no veas cómo se pega -). Later, he could be able to distinguish perfectly both languages. I don't think parents like to have a child who can be only understood by his family, but this is the process. My little brother can learn languages better than I can do, though I acquired my second language when I was about three (so, I'm not genuine bilingual ).