Subjunctive question [again:>))]

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by tacuba

@Malila

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. The question I was trying to ask was, "if a sentence starts with a clause or phrase that triggers the subjunctive, are all of the conjugated verbs that follow the clause or phrase used in the subjunctive?" The answer seems to be yes.

No, the second subjunctive in this case is caused by the focus on scarcity of the antecedent in the relative clause that follows, it's independent of the "no creo que".

[irmamar]

I do not agree. "Que vayan a querer participar" is completely dependent of the main sentence, which is "No creo". You could say:

No creo que muchos vayan a querer participar.
Creo que muchos van a querer participar.

The first subordinate ("haya muchos") becomes the subject of the second subordinate, so you can make the substitution to see it more clear.

You can't leave alone a subordinate, it has no sense without the main sentence:

Haya muchos. It has no sense.
Vayan a querer participar. The same.

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I do not agree. "Que vayan a querer participar" is completely dependent of the main sentence, which is "No creo". You could say:

No creo que muchos vayan a querer participar.
Creo que muchos van a querer participar.

The first subordinate ("haya muchos") becomes the subject of the second subordinate, so you can make the substitution to see it more clear.

You can't leave alone a subordinate, it has no sense without the main sentence:

Haya muchos. It has no sense.
Vayan a querer participar. The same.

I think you'll agree if I explain myself in a little more detail , sorry about being a bit too succinct.

Let's take this phrase: "No creo que haya muchos aquí que vayan a querer participar". The somewhat hidden relative phrase inside the whole noun phrase is "No hay muchos que vayan a querer participar". Do you see it? We could also say "Hay muy pocos que quieran participar", or similar. The subjunctive in these cases is caused by the scarcity of the antecedent, akin to "No hay nadie que (+ subj) ...". However, if we were to not focus on the scarcity, we'd use indicative, as in "Hay unos pocos que quieren participar".

To see the independence from the whole noun phrase with "no creo que", let's take another relative phrase, and see that it doesn't suddenly go in the subjunctive. We'll pretend that we all know there are lots of specific people willing to participate, but I doubt he'll find them, for some reason. I'd then say, for example "No creo que vayas a encontrar a los que quieren participar".

Do you agree now? Comments are of course very welcome. Saludos

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by María José

Ok, that I understand,thanks, but I say ' No me líes'.


Thanks, Crotalito.

Thank you for the correction.

Please you don't confuse me

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Vikingo: Irma is right. The verb in the main sentence determines the tense of the subordinate sentence.
When you communicate "belief" ("no creo que haya muchos"), there is already the inherent need for subjunctive, in both, the main sentence and the subordinate one.

Your sentence "hay muy pocos que quieran participar" should rather be "hay muy pocos que quieren participar", because you're communicating certainty.
But the reason why "no hay nadie que quiera participar" needs the subjunctive is that some negative sentences use the subjunctive instead of present tense.

Algunos estamos de acuerdo. (Some of us agree.)
No hay nadie que esté de acuerdo. (There is no one who agrees.)

Tengo un libro que quiero leer. (I have a book I want to read.)
No tengo ningún libro que quiera leer. (I don't have any book I want to read.)

Pienso que es inteligente. (I think he's bright.)
No pienso que sea inteligente. (I don't think he's bright.)

[chileno]

I know in Chile we speak badly but to me "No creo que hayan muchos interesados..." sounds perfect.

[CrOtALiTo]

Chileno.

My attempt could to works too.

No creo que puedan haber muchos interezados.
I don't believe that could have a lot of interested.

Please you feeling you free to correcting me in any moment.

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Vikingo: Irma is right. The verb in the main sentence determines the tense of the subordinate sentence.
When you communicate "belief" ("no creo que haya muchos"), there is already the inherent need for subjunctive, in both, the main sentence and the subordinate one.

Your sentence "hay muy pocos que quieran participar" should rather be "hay muy pocos que quieren participar", because you're communicating certainty.
But the reason why "no hay nadie que quiera participar" needs the subjunctive is that some negative sentences use the subjunctive instead of present tense.

Obsidiana, it seems to me like you're looking for a grammatical spanking (pretending that irma understood my first post, after you had read my second, pretending not to know the difference between a tense and a mood, pretending that the "dichotomy" - in the case of there being a specific one - between indicative and subjunctive is one of certainty, etc). I'm not going to give it to you at this level, though.

However, as I'm still learning Spanish, do you honestly think that using the subjunctive with a sentence like "hay muy pocos que quieran participar", is wrong, when we're focusing on there being almost noone? You didn't call it wrong specifically (pretending to not have understood the meaning of focus in my last post...), so I want to make it clear. I sure can cite an authoritative source, but consider that part of your spanking prize if you give a good and honest answer.

Go, grrrl team! ;P

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Vikingo: Grammatical spanking??? Sorry, I don't get what that's supposed to mean and I don't know either what you pretend by listing that many pretendings. Now, I may well have a confusion on the use of "tense" and "mood" and I always welcome corrections on my English, so I don't think that should be any problem.

As for my comments on the subjunctive, unless what I've said falls into the category of "regional differences", none of what I've said is false about it.

By the way, you can call me Angélica. "Obsidiana" is just the title, just like yours is "Ruby".

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Vikingo: Grammatical spanking??? Sorry, I don't get what that's supposed to mean and I don't know either what you pretend by listing that many pretendings. Now, I may well have a confusion on the use of "tense" and "mood" and I always welcome corrections on my English, so I don't think that should be any problem.

As for my comments on the subjunctive, unless what I've said falls into the category of "regional differences", none of what I've said is false about it.

By the way, you can call me Angélica. "Obsidiana" is just the title, just like yours is "Ruby".

Angelica.
Always I had the doubt about something above you.
What does Obsidiana means?

I don't find any relation of the word with you.

Please you don't take ban my commentary or question that is it the first and important of the question.
But I found interesting the word Obsidiana in a person like you.
I hope you can clear my question and well I don't pretend offend no ones.

Besides I believe what that word could be more interesting in your language, because that term could mean a intelligent people like you.

I guess it.

[Vikingo]

Ok, Angélica, if you're ever in Oslo, I know about this very cozy coffee shop . But if someone said to you, "hay muy pocos que quieran participar", would you find it fine, somewhat strange, or totally wrong, from your Mexican perspective?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Vikingo: Thanks, I'll let you know when I visit.
The sentence would be understood, of course, but I think it would be felt somewhat strange.


@Crotalito: Los títulos del foro están relacionados con piedras preciosas. Por eso elegí la obsidiana, que es una piedra negra, lisa, brillante, con la que algunas civilizaciones prehispánicas hacían utensilios, cuchillos, puntas de flecha, adornos y joyería.

[irmamar]

Angélica is right, and it is easy to understand it if you change the wole sentence into an affirmative sentence:

No creo que haya muchos que vayan a querer participar.
Creo que hay muchos que van a querer participar.
Creo que hay pocos que van a querer participar

Both sentences depend on the main sentence, they are subordinates of the same sentence (No creo).

In your example, the question is another, since this is not a "subordinada sustantiva", but a "subordinada adjetiva", where if the "antecedente" is non concrete, not known or denied, the subordinate uses subjunctive:

No hay muchos que vayan a querer participar.

That is a correct sentence but nothing to do with the former, where the main clause is the speaker's opinion, while this one is just a statement where the speaker's opinion is not taken into account.

You can't change a subordinate sentence into a main sentence without change the whole meaning of the sentence, in this case, the speaker's opinion. The use of the subjunctive in both sentences is due to different causes. The first one because there is a verb of thinking, while the second one because there is a "subordinada adjetiva" with the "antecedente" denied.

That would be easier for me if I could explain it in Spanish, I hope it is understable with my English.

PS: Let me give you another example:

No creo que los que vengan a la fiesta estén invitados (subjunctive).
Creo que los que vienen a la fiesta no están invitados (indicative).
Los que vienen a la fiesta no están invitados (indicative).

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

No creo que haya muchos que vayan a querer participar.

Why it isn't "hayan"?

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

PS: Let me give you another example:

No creo que los que vengan a la fiesta estén invitados (subjunctive).
Creo que los que vienen a la fiesta no están invitados (indicative).
Los que vienen a la fiesta no están invitados (indicative).

In your first example, you could say "No creo que los que vienen a la fiesta estén invitados". That is, if you knew who they were. There are different reasons for using the subjunctive, and in this case the choice of indicative or subjunctive in the relative clause ("los que vengan/vienen) is based on whether the antecedent is specific or not. It's independent of creo/no creo. Please tell me that you see this.

So, there are different reasons. Right? You've carefully chosen examples to prove your point, but I strongly recommend that you read my second post again.

I'm sure you can find other examples, but let's take this one: "Creo que no hay nadie que quiera participar". The "hay" comes from the positive belief, the "quiera" from the negative antecedent in the adjectival phrase ("nadie").

The same thing happens when we're talking about "casi nadie", as in the original example. Let me try to finish this argumentation by quoting from J. Borrego et al, "El subjuntivo: valores y usos", Regla 18:

Poco (y variantes) y apenas, como equivalentes en significado a "casi ninguno" (y variantes), "casi nadie" o "casi nada", así como estas últimas expresiones, cuando consistuyen por si solas el antecedente o forman parte de él, exigen subjuntivo en la oración relativa. (...)

(1) Sé de pocos que hayan venido.
(2) Disponemos de pocos folletos que puedan servirte.
(...)

Cuando poco (y sus variantes) no tienen primordialmente el significado "casi ninguno", etc. - y esto es general cuando va acompañado de determinante (el, los, unos, etc.) - admite indicativo o subjuntivo en la oración relativa (...)

(10) a. Los pocos invitados que han llegado están cenando.
(10) b. Los pocos invitados que hayan llegado estarán cenando.

If you put the pieces together carefully here, I'm sure you'll see the reason for the second subjunctive in "No creo que haya muchos que quieran participar". The first, haya, is caused by the "no creo que". The second is caused by the resulting semantics of there being very few.

And of course the coffee shop has a table for 3

Saludos

[tacuba]

Interesting discussion. My understanding is that if the verb in the main clause is a verb of doubt, denial or negation, and the subject of the verb changes in the subordinate clause, the subjunctive has to be used, there is simply not any choice. I'm looking right now at "The Spanish Subjunctive-Up Close" by Eric Vogt, and this is stated quite emphatically on page 27. "The rule is that Verb2 must be in the subjunctive form if and only if there is a change of subject, that is, if Subject1 and Subject2 are not the same person and if Verb1 is a W.E.I.R.D.O. verb."

W.E.I.R.D.O. verbs

W - Wishing, willing, wanting, hoping, expecting etc..
E - Emotion
I - Impersonal expression
R - Requesting, asking, demanding, commanding or causing
D - Doubt, denial, or negation
O - Ojalá

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by chileno

Why isn't it "hayan"?

The impersonal form of haber, which is said hay in the present indicative tense, is translated as 'there is' OR 'there are' in English.
Haber, como verbo impersonal, solo tiene una persona - la tercera de singular en cada tiempo, sólo con la forma especial en el presente.

hay gente
hay personas
había gente
había personas

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The impersonal form of haber, which is said hay in the present indicative tense, is translated as 'there is' OR 'there are' in English.
Haber, como verbo impersonal, solo tiene una persona - la tercera de singular en cada tiempo, sólo con la forma especial en el presente.

hay gente
hay personas
había gente
había personas

So, "No creo que hayan (muchas) personas interesadas...etc"

It isn't in the Subjunctive form?

[Rusty]

Yes, it's in the subjunctive form. It's just the wrong conjugation. You're supposed to use the singular third person. "No creo que haya (muchas) personas ..."

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Yes, it's in the subjunctive form. It's just the wrong conjugation. You're supposed to use the singular third person. "No creo que haya (muchas) personas ..."

I have been using it like that, I think, for all of my life.

Thank you Rusty.