Percatar(se)

[laepelba]

Is "percatar" always pronomial? In my hard copies of the RAE and Larousse dictionaries there is no mention of this verb without the "se". In wordreference.com there is no option for "percatar", only "percatarse". The only two places I see "percatar" as not pronomial are here in the Tomisimo dictionary and in the online RAE.

Do you think it's strange that the hard copy of the RAE is different than the online version? Does that mean that online is more up-to-date? Thus more accurate?

[Tomisimo]

I've only heard it as percatarse. "Me percaté de que..."

Edit: My Harper-Collins unabridged only has "percatarse", not percatar.

[chileno]

Me percato

Te tienes que percatar.

Hay que percatarse a tiempo.

[JPablo]

The most common usage is the pronominal one. As indicated above. But in DRAE on line, there is an intransitive definition that may or may not have the pronoun (me, te se, nos, os, se)
percatar
1. intr. Advertir, considerar, cuidar. U. t. c. prnl.

I had never used it in this sense, and never heard it or read it before. Yet I googled it and found some valid examples (although, this usage is not common at all in my experience.)
Examples found in googling it,
...al final de la sesión si no pudimos percatar algo de la música que estaban poniendo para cerrar.
(In the sense of "advertir" as in "percibir".)
*No pude evitar percatar algo así,
*En cualquier caso, nadie parece percatar algo distinto en ti o en el ambiente, siguen en su mundo
*Miran cada rincón visible tratando de percatar algo.
*Entre la multitud le pareció percatar algo sumamente familiar,
*los hombres en nuestra gran mayoría hemos nacido sin la capacidad de poder percatar la idea de romance femenino,
*Debemos percatar la idea de que el mundo no es perfecto ya que hay muchos tropiezos los cuales debemos de aprender de ellos y superarlos.

I would personally use "percibir" instead, on the majority of the cases... But as you can see, there are some people using "percatar" without any pronominal particle. What can I say...

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

The most common usage is the pronominal one. As indicated above. But in DRAE on line, there is an intransitive definition that may or may not have the pronoun (me, te se, nos, os, se)
percatar
1. intr. Advertir, considerar, cuidar. U. t. c. prnl.

I had never used it in this sense, and never heard it or read it before. Yet I googled it and found some valid examples (although, this usage is not common at all in my experience.)
Examples found in googling it,
...al final de la sesión si no nos pudimos percatar algo de la música que estaban poniendo para cerrar.
(In the sense of "advertir" as in "percibir".)
*No pude evitar percatarme algo así,
*En cualquier caso, nadie parece percatarse algo distinto en ti o en el ambiente, siguen en su mundo
*Miran cada rincón visible tratando de percatarse algo.
*Entre la multitud le pareció percatarse algo sumamente familiar,
*los hombres en nuestra gran mayoría hemos nacido sin la capacidad de poder percatarse la idea de romance femenino,
*Debemos percatarnos la idea de que el mundo no es perfecto ya que hay muchos tropiezos los cuales debemos de aprender de ellos y superarlos.

I would personally use "percibir" instead, on the majority of the cases... But as you can see, there are some people using "percatar" without any pronominal particle. What can I say...

Okay, so intransitive verbs do not need an object. But in each of these cases there is an object, right?

Also, if a pronoun is added to each of these sentences, would it change the meaning in any of the cases?

Thanks, JPablo!!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Okay, so intransitive verbs do not need an object. But in each of these cases there is an object, right?

More exactly, an intransitive verb cannot have an object! I am confused because the examples given above are for the pronomial verb used as a transitive verb, not the intransitive possibility which he mentions.

[JPablo]

Originally Posted by JPablo

percatar
1. intr. Advertir, considerar, cuidar. U. t. c. prnl.

...al final de la sesión si no nos pudimos percatar de algo de la música que estaban poniendo para cerrar.
*No pude evitar percatarme de algo así,
*En cualquier caso, nadie parece percatarse de algo distinto en ti o en el ambiente, siguen en su mundo
*Miran cada rincón visible tratando de percatarse de algo.
*Entre la multitud le pareció percatarse de algo sumamente familiar,
*los hombres en nuestra gran mayoría hemos nacido sin la capacidad de poder percatarnos de la idea de romance femenino,
*Debemos percatarnos de la idea de que el mundo no es perfecto ya que hay muchos tropiezos los cuales debemos de aprender de ellos y superarlos.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Okay, so intransitive verbs do not need an object. But in each of these cases there is an object, right? Yes, see my correction below!

Also, if a pronoun is added to each of these sentences, would it change the meaning in any of the cases? Yes, that's the case.

Thanks, JPablo!!

Your modifications are correct but adding de in each case. (It is the common/correct way.) (See my correction below, as Perikles is absolutely right on the intransitive point!) (Sorry, )

Originally Posted by Perikles

More exactly, an intransitive verb cannot have an object! I am confused because the examples given above are for the pronomial verb used as a transitive verb, not the intransitive possibility which he mentions.

Wow, yes, Perikles, YOU'RE RIGHT. The examples I found, are actually TRANSITIVE usages, not actually covered in the definition given in DRAE. (I.e., yes, these exists, as I found them, but are not transitive usages, as they all have an object.) (I have now found some intransitive usages, included below.)

Correct INTRANSITIVE examples (without Direct Object) found in googling,

* Cerré los ojos y sin percatar giré mi cuello
* Muchos viven en sus propias burbujas sin percatar a los que les rodean.
* Al llegar al otro lado de la cuadra, camino casi por instinto sin percatar a quien pase a mi lado,

The last two examples are with an indirect Object... But as I said before it is not an usage familiar to me... (At any rate, it is a good exercise...) (I wonder if Ookami and/or Angelica, Chileno... were acquainted with this sense and usage...?)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Correct INTRANSITIVE examples (without Direct Object) found in googling,

* Cerré los ojos y sin percatar giré mi cuello
* Muchos viven en sus propias burbujas sin percatar a los que les rodean.
* Al llegar al otro lado de la cuadra, camino casi por instinto sin percatar a quien pase a mi lado,

The last two examples are with an indirect Object... But as I said before it is not an usage familiar to me... (At any rate, it is a good exercise...) (I wonder if Ookami and/or Angelica, Chileno... were acquainted with this sense and usage...?)

Thanks for spending time on this, JPablo! So, I thought that in cases where a "normal" direct object is missing, the otherwise "indirect" object is treated as a direct object. Or is that only with pronoun choice (le vs. lo/la)?

[irmamar]

Me cuesta horrores pensar en un uso de "percatarse" no pronominal. Tus ejemplos me parecen muy raros. No usaría ese verbo, aunque no pongo en cuestión tu respuesta . Pero si lo dijera un extranjero, le corregiría.

I'm not sure what you're asking, Lou Ann.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I'm not sure what you're asking, Lou Ann.

I'm asking if it's possible that the RAE website could be incorrect....

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I'm asking if it's possible that the RAE website could be incorrect....

I don't think so. Maybe they are uses in another countries.

[laepelba]

I just find it strange that the RAE website is the ONLY place where I see this non-pronomial version. Even the hard copy of the RAE dictionary does NOT have it......

[irmamar]

I like very much this page and that is what the author says. It's quite difficult for me thinking of the second example (percatar algo), I've never heard or used it, but everything I've read from this author is correct (or I think so). But I don't know everything about Spanish. . I copy here the paragraph:

Hay verbos que funcionan solo con complemento de régimen y otros solo con complemento directo:
acordarse de algo y recordar algo
percatarse de algo y percatar algo

[laepelba]

Fantastic! Thanks!!

[irmamar]

You're welcome.

[JPablo]

Well, looks like things got clarified...
I know that it is very difficult that DRAE could be incorrect. If anything could be 'outdated'. I.e., some definitions and usages may refer to EARLIER usages of the terms. But I am positive they will have examples. They also have some kind of free consultation e-mail service... so we can double check on this... (And I will study my transitives/transitives, Direct Object, Indirect Object subjects... as I have these quite rusty...

Tendré que percatar (considerar) más a fondo...

[laepelba]

I think that the reason why this all started to bother me was because the online RAE differed from my hard copy of it. I know that they are often updating certain entries online, so I simply wasn't sure.........

[JPablo]

Well, I was about to consult directly RAE, but their department of "consultas" is closed until September 1st...

http://cronos.rae.es/cgi-bin/consulta_form.pl

http://www.rae.es/rae/gestores/gespu...5?OpenDocument

Well, I hope I will realize that, as soon as the US Open starts at Flushing Meadows... (August 30th, I believe) I'll have to get this e-mail to them...

(At any rate..., hay que percatarse de todo... and be on the !)

[poli]

Just use darse cuenta de instead. I'm sure it is more commonly understood.

[laepelba]

But darse cuenta and percatarse are not exact synonyms, right?