Sobre vs. Debajo de

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Okay - that is VERY helpful (thank you!). So how come my Spanish-speaking students were so confused about "front of the room"/"back of the room" when I was facing them...???

Perhaps when you said 'at the front of the room' they understood 'in front of me' which was the back of the room.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Perhaps when you said 'at the front of the room' they understood 'in front of me' which was the back of the room.

That is EXACTLY where the confusion was. Ugh!! And the confusion made sense to me ... it was just difficult to explain to them. And then when I tried to get the parallel wording in Spanish, I confused MYSELF.

[lyla]

Let me try to explain my understanding (or lack of) so far, and then maybe you can zero in on the essence of my confusion. But where I lose it is in the examples, which is not the best place

Sobre la cama = encima de la cama

Are you saying that the prepositions or prepositional phrases are interchangeable i.e. could be written as sobre de la cama 'or' sobre la cama, or are you saying that if you use 'sobre' you would never use the 'de' as that only is used when using 'encima'?

Hope this makes some sense? I just know that this discussion is going to be one those of those things that I'm going to feel really dumb about when I finally 'get' it...lol

Thanks

I just realized that there are 3 PAGES in this thread. I'm still getting used to the whole 'forum' thing too. Sorry if my reply has already been answered before I posted that last clarification a few minutes ago. I'll read on...

After reading on...nope...but glad that was cleared up lol

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by lyla

Let me try to explain my understanding (or lack of) so far, and then maybe you can zero in on the essence of my confusion. But where I lose it is in the examples, which is not the best place

Sobre la cama = encima de la cama

Are you saying that the prepositions or prepositional phrases are interchangeable i.e. could be written as sobre de la cama 'or' sobre la cama, or are you saying that if you use 'sobre' you would never use the 'de' as that only is used when using 'encima'?

Hope this makes some sense? I just know that this discussion is going to be one those of those things that I'm going to feel really dumb about when I finally 'get' it...lol

Thanks

Sobre -- is a preposition, roughly translated as "Above"
while
Encima de -- is a prepsitional frase translated as "on top of"


(Sobre) + la cama ' Above the bed / On the bed
(Encima de) + la cama " On top of the bed

[lyla]

Oh I think I feel a 'glimmer' coming on. I think my problem is that, as stated before being highly sequential (trapped in my own sequence to boot), that I am looking at the Spanish and trying to move the words around like jigsaw puzzle pieces (which I love). If 'sobre' translates roughly to 'above' and 'encima de' translates to 'on top of', then I can no sooner use 'sobre de' than I could use 'above of' in English. Just totally different, and no mixing and matching pieces allowed? Right? If not, I at least feel a little bit closer...lol

Thanks again!

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by lyla

Oh I think I feel a 'glimmer' coming on. I think my problem is that, as stated before being highly sequential (trapped in my own sequence to boot), that I am looking at the Spanish and trying to move the words around like jigsaw puzzle pieces (which I love). If 'sobre' translates roughly to 'above' and 'encima de' translates to 'on top of', then I can no sooner use 'sobre de' than I could use 'above of' in English. Just totally different, and no mixing and matching pieces allowed? Right? If not, I at least feel a little bit closer...lol

Thanks again!

ME alegre que lo entiendas Sí la llave es que "sobre is a preposition (which is only one word, above) while "encima de" is a prepositional phrase (which is more than one word, on top of)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by lyla

Hope this makes some sense? I just know that this discussion is going to be one those of those things that I'm going to feel really dumb about when I finally 'get' it...lol

Thanks

Originally Posted by lyla

I just realized that there are 3 PAGES in this thread. I'm still getting used to the whole 'forum' thing too. Sorry if my reply has already been answered before I posted that last clarification a few minutes ago. I'll read on...

After reading on...nope...but glad that was cleared up lol

You don't need to worry about the length of the thread. Sometimes it takes some back and forth for understanding to happen. And sometimes other "conversations" end up spinning off from your original question. Either way, it's all good.

You don't have to worry about feeling "dumb" about any of this. You're learning, and you're intent on understanding it. Ask and ask and ask again until you're sure you're solid ... or, if you want to move on, you can be sure that the understanding will eventually seep into your brain.

Keep at it!

[poli]

Originally Posted by irmamar

As Laepelba said, we can use both a prepositional phrase or a preposition with the same meaning:

Sobre la cama = encima de la cama
Bajo la cama = debajo de la cama
Tras la puerta = detrás de la puerta
Ante ti = delante de ti

I hope it helps.

This is why knowledege of grammar is very helpful when learning a second
language. Many people state that the study of grammar in boring
and not needed, but I disagree. Good knowledge (which doesn't need to be on the level of a liguistics professor) of grammar is always helpful.

[lyla]

Rusty

I think I understand what you meant when you stated that if the verb as conjugated clearly related to "I", as in jugando, you would not require the use of Yo. So in that vein:

Estoy jugando en el parque = I am playing in the park

In this case:

Trabajo en un hospital - I work in a hospital. There is no estoy here either.

Is it just because I am reading it wrong and there is no estar verb involved, i.e. that I am thinking that this phrase is dropping both the Yo and the Estoy, when in fact it has nothing to do with 'estar'? So to say 'I am working in a hospital' would be 'Estoy trabajo en un hospital' and this says "I work in a hospital"

Right? Clear as mud! I've tried editing this twice...no wonder I'm having so much trouble with 'Spanish' grammar...

Originally Posted by Rusty

The subject pronoun 'yo' is often omitted, as it is obvious from the conjugated verb which person applies. The pronouns must be used to clarify the subject only when there is ambiguity, like in the third person (the persons not embedded in parentheses in the table below).

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by lyla

Rusty

I think I understand what you meant when you stated that if the verb as conjugated clearly related to "I", as in jugando, you would not require the use of Yo. So in that vein:

Estoy jugando en el parque = I am playing in the park

In this case:

Trabajo en un hospital - I work in a hospital. There is no estoy here either.

Is it just because I am reading it wrong and there is no estar verb involved, i.e. that I am thinking that this phrase is dropping both the Yo and the Estoy, when in fact it has nothing to do with 'estar'? So to say 'I am working in a hospital' would be 'Estoy trabajo en un hospital' and this says "I work in a hospital"

Right? Clear as mud! I've tried editing this twice...no wonder I'm having so much trouble with 'Spanish' grammar...

Well, there is a different sense here. In English, we often say "I am blahblahblah-ing" for something that is currently ongoing. For example, I am studying Spanish. Well, not at this very exact moment ... at this very exact moment I am typing.

Here are the differences:
Trabajo en un hospital. Yo trabajo en un hospital. I work in a hospital.
Estoy trabajando en un hospital. Yo estoy trabajando en un hospital. I am working in a hospital.
(Note, the "-ando" ending on the Spanish verb that follows estoy is a similar usage to the English "-ing" ending for a verb that follows "I am".)

Estoy jugando en el parque. (I am playing in the park. Right now.)
Juego en el parque. (I play in the park. Often. Most days. It is my habit to do so.)

Also note: the "yo" or "tú", etc. are not required if the verb conjugation and context make it obvious who the subject of the sentence is.

Keep questioning!

[lyla]

So to reflect back what I hear you saying:

'Trabajo en un hospital' is the proper way to say "I work in a hospital' = no Yo required as this is 'understood' because of the form on the verb conjugation and this means I do this in the normal course of things, but am not doing it 'right now'.

I do realize that I had the ending wrong upon re-reading...too many things to remember lol

Thanks!

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by lyla

So to reflect back what I hear you saying:

'Trabajo en un hospital' is the proper way to say "I work in a hospital' = no Yo required as this is 'understood' because of the form on the verb conjugation and this means I do this in the normal course of things, but am not doing it 'right now'.

I do realize that I had the ending wrong upon re-reading...too many things to remember lol

Thanks!

What you just explained back to me sounds exactly like how I understand it. If a native/fluent speaker needs to correct me, then please do so. You are EXACTLY where I was about 14-15 months ago. You seem to be learning faster than I did.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by lyla

'Trabajo en un hospital' is the proper way to say "I work in a hospital' = no Yo required as this is 'understood'

Just to consolidate: in English, verbs endings are all the same except for he/she/it where there is a 's' ending. So you need something to tell you who is doing the action of the verb

I sing
you sing
he/she/it sings etc.

But Spanish has retained those endings which are different for each person and number

amo (I love)
amas (you sg. love)
ama (he/she/it love)
amamos (we love)
amáis (you pl. love)
aman (they love)

so the personal pronouns I/you/he etc. are not needed.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

...except for he/she/it where there is a 's' ending.

ama (he/she/it loves)

[Rusty]

Textbooks often teach the present progressive (the estoy jugando/estoy trabajando stuff) as the equivalent to the English "I'm playing/I'm working'. As Lou Ann said, though, you must think 'right now' when you're using the Spanish present progressive. Otherwise, use the present indicative (juego/trabajo).

Juego en el parque = I play in the park (statement of fact/habitual action)/I'm playing in the park (now (but I'm currently having a conversation with someone), soon, this afternoon, tomorrow morning)
Estoy jugando en el parque = I'm playing in the park (right now, as we speak, I'm playing)
Tomo leche = I drink milk/I'm drinking milk
Estoy tomando leche = I'm drinking milk (I can't talk right now, I'm drinking)

Hope that helps a bit.

[lyla]

Perikles..

Thanks! I know it has been absorbed at some level...now I know I need to walk away from this for a bit!

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by lyla

Perikles..

Thanks! I know it has been absorbed at some level...now I know I need to walk away from this for a bit!

GOOD! That's what I was hoping you'd do (for now). When you're ready, pick up the NEXT lesson in Rosetta, and move on to the next concept to ponder. This one will come to you when your brain is ready....

[lyla]

Ok, I think I've got it attached in there somewhere. When Rusty was bringing up present progressives and present indicatives, after shooting eyes skyward and moaning, I went looking and found this which I am posting to help anyone else that might stumble upon this. Turns out its exactly what you have all tried to explain to me except that it is 'sequential'. The curse continues...lol

http://www.studyspanish.com/lessons/presprog.htm

Thanks a lot!

[laepelba]

PS - I like the lessons and the layout in StudySpanish.com - keep checking back there for overviews of grammar points. (Am I allowed to say that on Tomisimo??)

[laepelba]

I hope that this isn't considered "back-to-back" posting if I post a second time a week or so later....??

Originally Posted by irmamar

Tras la puerta = detrás de la puerta

Originally Posted by irmamar

El sofá está detrás de mí, está a mi espalda.

Detrás de mi casa/en la parte posterior hay un callejón.

La ventana del baño da al callejón, que está detrás/en la parte posterior.

Okay - I'm STILL confused. This one keeps coming back to haunt me!

If my face is toward the television, and my back is toward the sofa, I can say "el sofá está detrás de mí" or I can say "el sofá está atrás...". Right?

And isn't "tras" used in the same sense as "atrás" and "detrás"?

So this morning I was reading about the earthquake in Chili, and something in one of the articles was talking about the danger of tsunamis after this earthquake. The quote went something like this: "Tras el terremoto..."

WAIT!! "Tras" means "after"!!?? I thought it meant "behind"? I don't get this...... (sigh...)

By the way - Lyla - I hope you're still plugging along!