Modismos Chocarreros.

[sosia]

Hello
It's not easy for a spaniard to find the proper words while trying to explain a thing. Like Elaina says, we use entonations and movements to speak, and emoticons are a little simple.

A fast reading of Alfonso's text makes a classit/racist text, but a normal reading (difficult in intenet times) is so simple as:

In Spanish we don't have diferent registers for different classes. We have perhspas some different words (slang, or cultivate) but it's very rare to hear something "so different" (like Ebonics for an american or the mentionen substandards, for example) that make us make a disgusting face. Hearing a bad sentence make us thing he doesn't know enough spanish, but never "he has another cultural level" There are racism here, but I will never speak to a gipsy with special words, entonation or modism. The language is the same. And that makes posible to speak with Mexican or Argentinian people directly (after adjusting our ears )

While trying to explain, Alfonso must change to spanish, where he is able to choose the perfect word/verb who explains his point of view. It cost me time to write in english, so my responses are usually not very long. But so I help others and learn myself. But it will never be a native level (I'm lazy ) so don't try to translate my writing to "that" level. We are not so good to express us with the perfect english word/verb.

Saludos
PD: I was scared that this thread would go "katastroph" but at the end was a nice one.

[CrOtALiTo]

Yes, Sosia, I accept your opinion, but perhaps still you need explain more your view point about of the thread here spoke.

[Jane]

Originally Posted by sosia

Hello
It's not easy for a spaniard to find the proper words while trying to explain a thing. Like Elaina says, we use entonations and movements to speak, and emoticons are a little simple.

A fast reading of Alfonso's text makes a classit/racist text, but a normal reading (difficult in intenet times) is so simple as:

In Spanish we don't have diferent registers for different classes. We have perhspas some different words (slang, or cultivate) but it's very rare to hear something "so different" (like Ebonics for an american or the mentionen substandards, for example) that make us make a disgusting face. Hearing a bad sentence make us thing he doesn't know enough spanish, but never "he has another cultural level" There are racism here, but I will never speak to a gipsy with special words, entonation or modism. The language is the same. And that makes posible to speak with Mexican or Argentinian people directly (after adjusting our ears )

While trying to explain, Alfonso must change to spanish, where he is able to choose the perfect word/verb who explains his point of view. It cost me time to write in english, so my responses are usually not very long. But so I help others and learn myself. But it will never be a native level (I'm lazy ) so don't try to translate my writing to "that" level. We are not so good to express us with the perfect english word/verb.

Saludos
PD: I was scared that this thread would go "katastroph" but at the end was a nice one.

Good try, Sosia, at trying to explain Alfonso´s stance.
Let´s see if he concurs.
And like you said, it´s been an interesting read.

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by poli

-----
This does seem a bit harsh in English. If you don't see why this sounds harsh, please inform me. This can be written in a gentler manner

This is harsh!
Es mucho más fácil encontrar dureza en las opiniones ajenas, especialmente cuando estamos en desacuerdo, que en las propias.

But I will not get offended at all because of it.

Thanks a lot for your corrections.

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by poli

-----
Creo que en EEUU hay poca gente que se burla de los desconocidos directamente, si hablan con un registro muy bajo o si son extranjeros. Es una situación (?) muy desagradable, pero existe. Por ejemplo hay situaciones que pueden pasar en una taberna entre gente que toma damasiadas cervezas. Ademas hay algunos comediantes que usan esa situación. Los EE UU es un pais que sigue ser un pais de imigrantes. Los americanos están acostumbrados a oir acentos extraños, pero somos capaces de burlarnos del modo de hablar de nuestros mismos paisanos y de los extranjeros, pero raramente en frente de ellos mismos.

No entiendo lo señalado en violeta.

Me alegro realmente de que haya una respuesta positiva a mis preguntas. Eso es todo. Quería escuchar un sí o un no después de leer la respuesta de Crotalito:

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo

Porque, las personas que dicen tener cultura o la que he conocido, cuando hablan de modismos hacen gestos de desprecio o mas bien gestos de que es la persona de bajo nivel por usarlos.

Es esto lo que me ha extrañado y lo que creo que merece explicación, pues creo que, en general, es falso (I'm saying my opinion at the risk of being harsh).

Además, la afirmación de Crotalito contiene un prejuicio clasista (¿resentimiento? No lo sé, pero prejuicio), pues generaliza una situación sobre una clase supuestamente culta. En sus formas quizá no resulta harsh. Pero es realmente harsh en el contenido.

Parece que estamos llegando a un nivel de hipocresía preocupante, pues sólo nos preocupa la manera de decir las cosas, no lo que realmente decimos.

En mi opinión, he dicho las cosas con rigidez, tal y como merece el asunto, pues soy inflexible con los prejuicios clasistas. Pero, desde luego, no he dicho nada a lo que se le pueda reprochar la mínima falta de caridad.

(supongo que con un emoticono queda todo menos harsh).

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by Elaina

Sometimes people speak in such a way that others don't understand them or misinterpret what they are saying based on the tone of their voice. In written form, if I was to write a post and enter (!<>?:"^&*()_) you or anyone would think I am swearing or using words that are not very appropriate.

So Alfonso, I apologize for also thinking that you are sometimes too harsh with your responses. You don't use or haven't used any (swear words or anything like that) but I pick up on the rigidity of your responses.

I guess that's why I imagine you with a smoking jacket, an ascot, a pipe, rigidly talking to other intellectuals in a library.

Elaina

You are speaking about my way of talking. It's a paradox that you defend the way of talking of other people and, actually, don't accept mine. It's OK to me. I don't get offended because of that.

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo

Spanish.

Quiero comentarte que no pienso entrar en polemica con este tema, pero creo que en todos lados hay gente con escasos recursos humanos, y queda comentar que existe la produncia acerca de como tu y yo y ellos podemos tratar a la gente por su clase social, sea pobre, rico, de clase media, al menos yo trato a todos igual por donde quieras verlo, la diferencia que nos divide hasta ahora es la clase habitual o tipo de vida que tenemos, creo que los modismos son y seran respetados por las personas que realmente saben que al ocuparlos te identificas con tu nacionalidad y personalidad, no creo que por usar un modismo sea pecado o sea naco como actualmente es llamado, hay gente que es impertinente al pensar que si usa modismos se rebaja a la misma o baja altura de quien lo menciona, se respetar las diversidades de las clases te respeto a ti respeto a todos en este foro, bien si decimos modismos es bueno porque nos identificamos con nuestra cultura, eso no quiere decir que si sabemos modimos no tuvimos la suficiente educacion de jovenes no claro que no, significa tu personalidad, tu manera simple, complicada, coloquial de hablar con otra persona, esto me hace pensar en la diversidad de culturas y pensamientos que tenemos entre paises, la gente a pesar de todas las culturas creo que en algo concordamos que no por ser el probre y el rico no podemos hablar con gente de otras culturas, algo que si doy enfasi, y es que en el tema de la migracion, los mexicanos por tonteria por falta de regidez en nuestro pais tenemos diversidades de construmbres muy tipicas de nuestro pais que en otros lados lo que es nuestra habla nuestra constumbres son criticadas, claro ejemplo los chinos, entonces si existe el racismo aun en pleno siglo 21, y creo que siempre existira porque nunca encontraras a alguien que este de acuerdo en todo, en como te vistas, como hables, como mires, como te expreses, siempre hay un martillo trantando de claverte el doloroso clavo para decirte oye no seas NACO.

I hope, I've you answered your question.

I've got nothing to oppose to what you say, Crotalito, except that I don't think this is the proper answer to my question. But, of course, you don't have any duty to answer to my question: Is it true that middle or high class Mexican people make depreciative gestures when they hear people talking with idioms / modismos?
Es decir, si hago una pregunta absolutamente inocente de racismo o clasismo y me contestas con un discurso anti-racista, podría entender que me estás llamando racista. Realmente, no sé a qué viene toda esta perorata. Nuevamente, te dejas cegar por tus prejuicios y, por falta de atención al leer, por simplificación, me atribuyes ideas que no tengo, sino que extraes de estereotipos que te resultan muy cómodos para juzgar a los demás. Da la impresión de que o estoy contigo o estoy contra ti. Pues no, ni lo uno ni lo otro.

Dime si estoy equivocado: por lo que escribes, entiendo que en México a la gente que utiliza un registro bajo al hablar se le llama despectivamente naco. ¿Estoy en lo cierto?

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by sosia

Hello
It's not easy for a spaniard to find the proper words while trying to explain a thing. Like Elaina says, we use entonations and movements to speak, and emoticons are a little simple.

A fast reading of Alfonso's text makes a classit/racist text, but a normal reading (difficult in intenet times) is so simple as:

In Spanish we don't have diferent registers for different classes. We have perhspas some different words (slang, or cultivate) but it's very rare to hear something "so different" (like Ebonics for an american or the mentionen substandards, for example) that make us make a disgusting face. Hearing a bad sentence make us thing he doesn't know enough spanish, but never "he has another cultural level" There are racism here, but I will never speak to a gipsy with special words, entonation or modism. The language is the same. And that makes posible to speak with Mexican or Argentinian people directly (after adjusting our ears )

While trying to explain, Alfonso must change to spanish, where he is able to choose the perfect word/verb who explains his point of view. It cost me time to write in english, so my responses are usually not very long. But so I help others and learn myself. But it will never be a native level (I'm lazy ) so don't try to translate my writing to "that" level. We are not so good to express us with the perfect english word/verb.

Saludos
PD: I was scared that this thread would go "katastroph" but at the end was a nice one.

Thanks a lot, Sosia, for explaining what I said and, especially, for reading attentively what I wrote.
I'm almost completely agreed with you (see below). I know we both know Spanish culture well, so it's easy to agree when describing the facts. Of course, in Spain there exists clasism, racism (and, in my opinion, this is increasing) and a lot of problems. But it's really bizarre to think that a person could laugh or make mockery at other person's way of talking, in front of behind his face. We all speak in a different way... I said sub-standard Spanish doesn't exist, but I should add that standard Spanish doesn't exist either.

I think when you say A fast reading of Alfonso's text makes a classit/racist text, but a normal reading (difficult in intenet times) is so simple as... you're pointing exactly to the main question... Don't allow stereotypes influence your comprehension of the world. Where is racism in my text? Only in some reader's mind. That's why I said it's not my fault. Reading is an intellectual effort... Don't give up trying to understand!

On the other hand, here is my little disagreement: why did you think this thread would go catastrophic? I know this is a complex and a conflictive question but, has all the threads got to be white threads where to say how funny and nice we are? Don't be afraid to disagree!

You are right, I should change to Spanish when I want to make myself clear...

[Jane]

Originally Posted by Alfonso

Thanks a lot, Sosia, for explaining what I said and, especially, for reading attentively what I wrote.
I'm almost completely agreed with you (see below). I know we both know Spanish culture well, so it's easy to agree when describing the facts. Of course, in Spain there exists clasism, racism (and, in my opinion, this is increasing) and a lot of problems. But it's really bizarre to think that a person could laugh or make mockery at of another person´s/ other people´s (other person's) way of talking, in front of or behind his face. We all speak in a different way... I said sub-standard Spanish doesn't exist, but I should add that standard Spanish doesn't exist either.

I think when you say A fast reading of Alfonso's text makes a classit/racist text, but a normal reading (difficult in intenet times) is so simple as... you're pointing exactly to the main question... Don't allow stereotypes influence your comprehension of the world. Where is racism in my text? Only in some reader's mind. That's why I said it's not my fault. Reading is an intellectual effort... Don't give up trying to understand!

On the other hand, here is my little disagreement: why did you think this thread would go catastrophic? I know this is a complex and a conflictive question but, has all the threads got to be white threads where to say how funny and nice we are? Don't be afraid to disagree!

You are right, I should change to Spanish when I want to make myself clear...

Your English is very clear and understandable.
But, please, what do you mean by white thread...?

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by Jane

Your English is very clear and understandable.
But, please, what do you man by white thread...?

I mean a non problematic but also non really interesting thread. Don't you use that expression in English? I'm sorry I translated it directly from Spanish, as you can say something like una opinión blanca meaning this. It's funny that you wrote what do you man by...? Can you say I man this, I man that?
(I'm going right now to the library, Jane... I hope you'll have a very good day).

[Jane]

Originally Posted by Alfonso

...
It's funny that you wrote what do you man by...? Can you say I man this, I man that?
...

A careless mistake, thanks for pointing it out.

[sosia]

why did you think this thread would go catastrophic?

It has nothing to do with the racist think, it was because I didn't like the poll (encuesta)
Te consideras culto?
Si soy muy culto, y preciso, no digo modismos.
Soy regular, soy estudiado y se usar mis modismos.

I thought it was too white or too black, so I didn't answer. There are lots of people (for example old farm people, whith no studies) who has a narrower variety of knowledge, but they use this narrow knowledge perfectly. They make no faults, or incorrect expresions. They do not use cultivate words, but their words express what they want.

I consider myself "culto", but I can use modismos, slang or whatever word I found it's the right there. I try to use the proper words in the proper moment. It's not the same talking to young people or with old people. An extreme example is Japanese.

saludos

[poli]

Originally Posted by sosia

It has nothing to do with the racist think, it was because I didn't like the poll (encuesta)
Te consideras culto?
Si soy muy culto, y preciso, no digo modismos.
Soy regular, soy estudiado y se usar mis modismos.

I thought it was too white or too black, so I didn't answer. There are lots of people (for example old farm people, whith no studies) who has a narrower variety of knowledge, but they use this narrow knowledge perfectly. They make no faults, or incorrect expresions. They do not use cultivate words, but their words express what they want.

I consider myself "culto", but I can use modismos, slang or whatever word I found it's the right there. I try to use the proper words in the proper moment. It's not the same talking to young people or with old people. An extreme example is Japanese.

saludos

I agree. Sometimes surveys are very slanted (meaning Manipulative)

[poli]

Originally Posted by Alfonso

This is harsh!
Es mucho más fácil encontrar dureza en las opiniones ajenas, especialmente cuando estamos en desacuerdo, que en las propias.

But I will not get offended at all because of it.

Thanks a lot for your corrections.

No estaba especialmente en desacuerdo contigo en lo que escribiste. Lo que quería decir es que el modo en que lo comunicaste sonó un poquito ofensivo en inglés, y si no era su intención sonar crudo, te puedo mostrar
como se puede decir la misma cosa en un modo más gentíl.

PS
On a different subject: As an example of how an English speaker may poke fun at a foreigner can be seen in the movie
Borat. This comedy was criticized for its morbosidad, but it was successul in the US and Britain. Was it shown in Spain?
If so, did people understand it?
I accept what you say, but I find surprizing that Spanish people do not find the mis-use of language by their countrymen
or foreigners comical.
See another thread about malapropisms. I think language misuse, and cultural misunderstanding can be very funny.

[CrOtALiTo]

Let's see.

Alfonso and sosia.

I think what you two have desviated of the point exact of this thread, now, Alfonso think, what I'm a person hypocrite and racialism, look, I'm not any of the two way, only I express my own viem point, I'm sorry if you Alfonso felt offended with my comments about it, more late I answered your questions.

[Elaina]

It's good to disagree and to discuss a certain viewpoint. These kinds of discussions are very stimulating, informative, educational and refreshing.

I guess we can all agree that not only will you have disagreements in politics & religion but now also in language and its proper use.

[CrOtALiTo]

I'm agreed with you, Elaina.

Look, I think, what the use correct of l

[CrOtALiTo]

I'm agreed with you, Elaina.

Look, I think, what the use correct of language is the way free of expression of a person, I don't believe that the diferent level social doesn't show disagree with the people that use modismos, I've seen it, for that I told you, in Mexico the people is racialism, I'm not so, but Alfonso believe that I'm so, and what my words are very hypocrites, and with the said Alfonso, I don't agreed, because, Only I try of give a message sane about the use of the modismos in diferent contries.

[Elaina]

To tell you the truth, I don't think Alfonso was accusing you of being a racist or a hypocrite. I think that he was debating your viewpoint about "modismos" and their use and who uses them and their place in a language......which he is entitled to.

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by poli

No estaba especialmente en desacuerdo contigo en lo que escribiste. Lo que quería decir es que el modo en que lo comunicaste sonó un poquito ofensivo en inglés, y si no era tu intención sonar crudo, te puedo mostrar cómo se puede decir la misma cosa en un modo más gentil.

OK, I see... was it a little harsh?

Hey, I didn't say that in Spain the way of talking cannot be funny due to different reasons. Of course, it can be. Actually, it is. What I said is that this is not a common reason for discrimination.

Borat was shown here some time ago. I'm sorry I didn't watch it, so I don't have an opinion about it.