Which Spanish accent do you prefer?

[Villa]

Originally Posted by poli

Es importante saber que todo la Argentina no habla como porteños. Es un gran pais con acentos variables--algunos no tan comprensibles. ¿Han oido una person de Rosario hablar? Personalmente, tuve que concentrar mucho entender dos profesores de escuela primaria de allí--dos pedagogas educadas. En este modo se puede comparar Argentina con EEUU. No todos los estadoundenses hablan como si fuera de Chicago.

¿Será entonces que todos los argentinos que he conocido son porteños y por esto todos hablan con un acento italiano?

Ad ogni modo/De todos modos aquí hay un cuento to illustrate my point:

Dos argentinos llegan a Italia. Dice uno:

Che, ¿habrá argentinos acá en Roma?
-No sé che...mirá en la guia teléfonica.
Y el otro lee:
-Baldini, Corranti, Dominici, Ferrutti...¡Che...Roma está llena
de apellidos argentinos y gente de Argentina!

I rest my case.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Premium

No, it's not wrong.
In Brazil, +25 million are of Italian descent, which is the largest population of Italian background outside Italy itself. It doesn't mean they are all linked to Italian society, though.

Anyway, this goes off topic.

Originally Posted by Villa

"No, it's not wrong.
In Brazil, +25 million are of Italian descent, which is the largest population of Italian background outside Italy itself."

No te sientas mal ale, todos hacemos errores. Just kidding. jajajajajajajaja...

El número para Brasil es otra aproximación grosera, pero yo me refería a la población argentina que está mal, y la supuesta cifra "italianos" es una reverenda pavada, producto de la fantasía calenturienta justificada en el hedonismo epistemológico.

The shrinking Italian "community" in Argentina is clearly spotted in the language. About half of Argentines don't use chau though everybody understands it. Though chau had been mainly used as an interjection of farewell, it still happened in 1970 -in large cities with immigration- that we would use chau as hola when we passed a neighbour on the streets. That use is now almost dead and chau is just an expression of farewell. Also about 1970 half of the population used ufa as a term of annoyance; today the expression has almost vanished. These are just samples of the de-italianization of Argentina, both demographically and culturally. The most dynamic groups from a demographic point of view during the last more than a few decades have been the "Hispanic" type -with Hyspanic meaning a mix of Indian blood with a variable rate of mostly Spanish Europeans- and this is true not only about immigration but internally. As a result, genetic surveys made on old banks of blood samples have found that Mongoloid markers were present in 22% of the samples by 1920 -mostly cornered in the Northern provinces-, but that number grew consistently to reach 42% by 2000 [bias corrections were applied],reclaiming the role and place they deserve.

The Argentina of the great Old World migrations doesn't exist any longer. When I was born Buenos Aires was reputed to be the "second largest city of Israel" -only surpassed by New York-. but during my lifetime the percentage or Jews -culturally or religiously identified as such- among the total population has dropped from 2.6% to 0.5%. The reason is not mostly emigration -some 70,000 have left- but the couples of mixed ethnicity and mainly the low birthrate of white middle classes.

Finalmente, Villa, no tienes ningún "caso", sólo un conjunto de anécdotas que has querido convertir caprichosamente en un sucedáneo de la realidad.

[Premium]

I don't really know much about the immigration in South America. In Austria, there are dozens of people with Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Slovenian and Hungarian descent due to the Austrian Empire.
Not even 10% of them speak their language nor know anything about their culture.

[chileno]

According to Wikipedia in Spanish "Se estima que 25 millones de argentinos tienen al menos un antepasado italiano."

It is estimated that 25 millions of Argentians have at least one Italian ancestor.

Maybe it is not true Alec, or maybe we misunderstood you?

[Villa]

Originally Posted by chileno

According to Wikipedia in Spanish "Se estima que 25 millones de argentinos tienen al menos un antepasado italiano."

It is estimated that 25 millions of Argentians have at least one Italian ancestor.

Maybe it is not true Alec, or maybe we misunderstood you?

Gracias chileno. ¡Concluyo mi alegato! O mejor dicho caso cerrado.

[Villa]

Due argentini arrivano in Italia. Uno dice:

Ce, ci saranno argentini qui a Roma?"
"Non lo so ... guarda nell'elenco telefonico"
L'altro legge:
"Baldini, Corranti, Dominici, Ferrutti... ecc. Ce, Roma è piena di nominativi argentini e di gente argentina!!"

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by chileno

According to Wikipedia in Spanish "Se estima que 25 millones de argentinos tienen al menos un antepasado italiano."

It is estimated that 25 millions of Argentians have at least one Italian ancestor.

Maybe it is not true Alec, or maybe we misunderstood you?

More than 25 millions, up to 40 millions I think if you go back enough. In that "at least an ancestor" sense I have Spanish ancestors, certainly Ukrainians, and most probably Mongol. But in fact, and for any practical meaning of ancestor, I just have Scott, English, French and Italian ancestors (Italian the most).

About Wikipedia, it no longer says that. Habitualmente elimino algo así como el 0.1% de las pavadas que detecto en Wikipedia, "la enciclopedia peligrosamente ignorante y apenas mejor que nada", pero ya que aquí se han puesto en *********, eliminé todas esas alusiones antojadizas.

Villa, tú sí que no tienes caso ... to rest, because the case was dismissed long time ago. Cualquier idiota puede determinar los orígenes étnicos argentinos haciendo un recorrido de las guías telefónicas. Eso por supuesto tiene un sesgo, ya que las familias de clase media y alta urbana de origen europeo y de Medio Oriente tienen muchos más teléfonos por cada 100 habitantes que las personas de origen mestizado de amerindio, africano y español, principalmente si son de medios rurales.

Pueden si quieren hacer un experimento: la guía telefónica de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires -sólo Capital Federal (por ese entonces el conurbano ya era más poblado que la Capital)- del año 1950 está disponible en línea -son sólo 670 páginas, unos 300.000 teléfonos-. En la página 155 están el teléfono de la casa de mi abuelo y el del consultorio de mi padre, que se había recibido tres años antes (los Fernández empiezan en la página 222 y terminan en la 228, pero en la guía actual hay 13551 sobre 800.000 teléfonos particulares listados, al menos un 50% más). Los apellidos italianos apenas se acercan al 50%, eso incluyendo lo de la clase media y alta, con más razón en esa época cuando una línea teléfonica costaba como el 10% de un salario mínimo, que desde 1939 casi no se conseguían nuevas líneas telefónicas y que la inmigración italiana había sido de 145 hombres por cada 100 mujeres, por lo que hay un sesgo que hace que aparezcan más apellidos italianos de lo que corresponde a la verdadera proporción de ancestros.

The most common Italian surnames are Rosso and Russo. "There are 56,260 people in the U.S. with the last name Russo." En la guía telefónica de Capital Federal hay 1092, en Buenos Aires hay 2632, en Santa Fe 259, en Córdoba 218. Hay 9 en la provincia de Santa Cruz con 280.000 habitantes. En total hay 4883 líneas telefónicas fijas privadas listadas bajo el apellido Russo. PagineBianche tienen 33494 teléfonos particulares bajo el apellido Russo. Teniendo en cuenta la cantidad de líneas no listadas y las proporciones de población a líneas, podemos encontrar unas 25 a 40.000 personas de apellido Russo en la Argentina. Cualquiera sea el criterio que apliquemos, el mito de la supuesta predominancia italiana en la Argentina se cae. El bureau del censo da unos 18 millones de ítalo-estadounidenses y algunos más de múltiple origen étnico, y en los Estados Unidos hay hasta el doble de Russos. En Italia hay 6,8 más Russos en la guía telefónica, pero sólo 2,6 más teléfonos. Y además está el problema del sesgo: el Italia los Russo son promedio a menos ricos que el promedio, y lo mismo en Estados Unidos. En la Argentina son más ricos que el promedio y por lo tanto tienen más líneas telefónicas cada 100 habitantes.

No importa las vueltas que le den, la contribución étnica italiana a la argentinidad es lo suficientemente fuerte y próspera aún como para no ser arrollada por todos los factores que le juegan en contra, pero nada más. Es la segunda minoría. No la mayoría ni la primera minoría.

La fantasía de una Argentina italiana en un 30, 40, 50, 60, o 67% sólo es parte de la realización imaginaria del planteo racista que se plasmó en la obligación constitucional de fomentar la inmigración europea, y no otra, con la finalidad de desalojar a las "malas razas" -indios, africanos y españoles, acusados de violencia, indolencia y quedantismo- para reemplazarlos por "razas exitosas" - alemanes, suizos, franceses, británicos, holandeses, y si no quedara mejor opción, italianos, polacos, griegos, árabes y, eso sí, la menor cantidad posible de judíos y musulmanes que se necesiten para alardear de tener libertad de culto-. Gracias demos que todo este modelo racista ha desaparecido, pero la fantasía de verlo realizado invade las mentes de los idiotas racistas residuales y, no es de extrañar, Wikipedia, que estornuda al ritmo de las pestes que se propagan entre sus usuarios.

[Villa]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

More than 25 millions, up to 40 millions I think if you go back enough. In that "at least an ancestor" sense I have Spanish ancestors, certainly Ukrainians, and most probably Mongol. But in fact, and for any practical meaning of ancestor, I just have Scott, English, French and Italian ancestors (Italian the most).

Italian the most! jajajajaja...

Stai parlando in inglés molto bene che, complimenti. Come hai imparato così tanto inglés viviendo in Argentina?

[aleCcowaN]

40 million Italians, 40 million French, 40 million Spaniard ... and 39 million Hebrews. Strangely, only just 30 or 32 million Amerindian. So much imprecise is the phrase "some XXXXXX ancestor".

Originally Posted by Villa

Italian the most! jajajajaja...

Of course, I'm proud of it and I'm going to get the doppia cittadinanza soon, but I'm not lying to make Argentina look like what she is not.

Originally Posted by Villa

Stai parlando in inglés molto bene che, complimenti. Come hai imparato così tanto inglés viviendo in Argentina?

Sorry ma io non parlo il cocoliche.

By the way, I just read that you went on with all this ethnic bull in the rivalry/feud thread (like the supposed population of Rosario in 1876 and the percentage of foreigners, which are way way off the real data -1926's is only way off). Is it some kind of religion that is forcing you to do that?

[Villa]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

40 million Italians, 40 million French, 40 million Spaniard ... and 39 million Hebrews. Strangely, only just 30 or 32 million Amerindian. So much imprecise is the phrase "some XXXXXX ancestor".



Of course, I'm proud of it and I'm going to get the doppia cittadinanza soon, but I'm not lying to make Argentina look like what she is not.



Sorry ma io non parlo il cocoliche.

By the way, I just read that you went on with all this ethnic bull in the rivalry/feud thread (like the supposed population of Rosario in 1876 and the percentage of foreigners, which are way way off the real data -1926's is only way off). Is it some kind of religion that is forcing you to do that?

Es en contra de mi religión mentir y mi religión está en decir la verdad acerca de la Argentina. Estoy bromeando. De todos modos dicen que la gente no sabe que está hablando con un acento. En este caso tú no sabes que hablas el español con acento italiano. jajajaajajajaja... Estoy bromeando, estoy bromeando. No te enojes mi amigo argentino que habla el español con acento italiano. Después de todo debes estar orgulloso de hablar el español con accento intaliano.

Veo que Cocoliche es un pidgin italiano-español que fue hablando por los inmigrantes italianos en Argentina (sobre todo en el area grande de Buenos Aires) entre 1880-1950. Rosario tambien.

Yo estaba en la escuela con algunos estudiantes argentinos en Italia. Me dijeron que el gobierno argentino no tenía mucho respeto por la lengua italiana en aquellos tiempos cuando los inmigrantes italianos fueron a Argentina. ¿Tú piensas iqual?

[nativespanish]

Like native spanish I prefer the spanish accent, the spanish spoken in Castille (is the one I have), but I love the cubans´spanish accent, the mexican one, the spanish accent in Uruguay, Chile and Costa Rica. I love how cubans chage "r" for "l" ("amol" instead of "amor", "mi helmano" instead of "mi hermano"), and of course the andalucian accent (sometimes is difficult to understand them for us too)

"er folou mi ece..." refers to "follow me" programm .

In Spain we say a "closed" accent (I don´t know if that´s correct) when people have an accent very difficult to be understood. Is there in english a "closed accent" too? where?. When I visited India it was ver difficult to me to understand them speaking english (for example) and also in South Africa ad in Australia. Thank you. I´d like to listen it...

[JPablo]

I believe "acento cerrado" is "a thick accent" in English...

Otherwise, I love "Andalú"... ¡Osú!

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by JPablo

I believe "acento cerrado" is "a thick accent" in English...

[nativespanish]

Originally Posted by JPablo

I believe "acento cerrado" is "a thick accent" in English...

Otherwise, I love "Andalú"... ¡Osú!

hahaha me too! thank you. Do you know if there is a "thick english" anywhere?

[JPablo]

Mmmm... I believe... probably "a thick Southern accent", you know, somewhere in Georgia... (But I guess every area may have its "thick" accent... like "a thick Texan accent"...)

Let's see if the English natives give us some more ideas...

[chileno]

And for BrE ask for cockney and other natural accents...

[Premium]

Originally Posted by chileno

And for BrE ask for cockney and other natural accents...

Michael Caine, for instance. I can't even figure it out what they are saying.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Premium

Michael Caine, for instance. I can't even figure it out what they are saying.

He speaks clear, sometimes...

[Rusty]

I speak American English with an accent from the Rocky Mountain states, but certainly not the accent of a country bumpkin from the same area. This means I have no noticeable drawl.
Those who do speak with a drawl are identified with it. In other words, some folks from the hills and remote countryside speak like they never had much of an education or exposure to mainstream media. Their vowel pronunciation tends to wander all over the place and they don't use any fancy words. They seem content with talking about the woods or the farm and their animals. Indeed, a whole community can speak with a noticeable drawl.

I've never given it much thought, but folks who speak with a drawl may have difficulty understanding those of us who don't.

Along the same vein, a thick accent to some folks may be the normal way of speaking for other folks. It's all relative.

To me, a thick English accent is usually associated with persons from another country or, at least, another area. I'm able to understand all American English accents. None of them give me any problem.
So, I don't consider any of them thick accents.

In general, I don't consider a British accent or an Australian accent a thick accent. However, there are certainly folks from certain areas of the UK and Australia that I do not immediately understand (I have to strain to make sense of some conversations).
Those are what I consider thick English accents.

Again, what's a thick accent to me is not necessarily a thick accent to another.

[Esppiral]

Originally Posted by nativespanish

Like native spanish I prefer the spanish accent, the spanish spoken in Castille (is the one I have), but I love the cubans´spanish accent, the mexican one, the spanish accent in Uruguay, Chile and Costa Rica. I love how cubans chage "r" for "l" ("amol" instead of "amor", "mi helmano" instead of "mi hermano"), and of course the andalucian accent (sometimes is difficult to understand them for us too)

"er folou mi ece..." refers to "follow me" programm .

In Spain we say a "closed" accent (I don´t know if that´s correct) when people have an accent very difficult to be understood. Is there in english a "closed accent" too? where?. When I visited India it was ver difficult to me to understand them speaking english (for example) and also in South Africa ad in Australia. Thank you. I´d like to listen it...

Súper divertido xD, eso sí que es un claro ejemplo de ceceo y lo demás son tonterías.

Que conste que tengo familia andaluza, a la que apenas entiendo
La verdad que el acento andaluz, en todas sus variantes, siempre suena amable y divertido.