Catalan Independence

[Zarnium]

Could someone explain to me the ins and outs of the current Catalan independence movement in Spain? I've done some cursory research, but I'm a little lost as to exactly why they want independence, why the Spanish government doesn't want them to, and how this is affecting the people of Spain socially.

I know that they want independence generally because they're somewhat culturally distinct and because they feel they'd be better off financially, given the massive economic problems of Spain. I also know generally that the Spanish National Government doesn't want them to leave because it wouldn't be good for the rest of Spain financially, and because national governments usually don't want parts of their country to secede on general principle. However, I don't really know the specifics of either side.

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening? Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written? In the United States, for example, there simply is not any way for a state to leave the union. Existing laws would have to be modified for such a thing to happen.

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

To be honest, as an American, when I hear about people in other countries talking about secession over financial or cultural reasons, it sounds a little odd to me . Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals. We have some rather bitter political wars, but these are based on political affiliation and religion rather than on geographical location. Perhaps this pops up in Europe so much more because they have older, long-standing cultures there, whereas most people in America are descendants of comparatively recent immigrants.

[poli]

As an American, this should not sound too strange too you, because secession for financial and cultural reasons is part of US history. Some of the issues of US Civil War are still issues Americans deal with today.

Some Catalonians see themselves as somewhat less peninsular and more European than the rest of Spain. They have a distinct language and often distrust for the federal government based in Madrid which is a rival city to Catalonian Barcelona in the way NYC and LA used to be. Kids in school are taught mostly in Catalan. Separatists have their own flag which is the traditional red and yellow striped flag but with a blue triangle with a star in the middle of it--kind of like Puerto Rico's flag
but with hepatitis.

The Catalonian distrust for Castile is nothing new, but as you mentioned distain for what is seen as incompetent government hasn't helped. Nevertheless. there is absolutely no problem traveling to and from both regions. Probably the majority of Catalonians in Spain do not want to separate. There was an enormous rally on Columbus day in favor of remaining unified.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals.

Apart from those who funded the IRA. (And probably a number of Texans - or at least, that's the impression I get ).

Originally Posted by Zarnium

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening?

My recollection of polling data is that there's majority support for it. On that basis, I would hesitate to say that it has no chance of happening. But quantifying the chance that it happens in, say, the next 20 years is hard because there are so many factors to take into account.

If Scotland votes for independence from the UK next year and suffers because of leaving the EU, that could swing opinion in the other regions which have movements advocating independence from an EU member state.

Even if it doesn't, one lesson from Scotland is that the scope of the referendum matters. Both sides would try to "gerrymander" the vote by defining who is eligible.

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written?

No. The Spanish government points out that the Spanish Constitution states (Article 2) that

La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas.

Originally Posted by Zarnium

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

The stereotype of Catalans is that they're stingy. It is also not unknown for Spaniards from non-Catalan-speaking regions who visit Cataluña to find that people refuse to speak Castilian to them, which causes some aggravation. But as an outsider who's lived in a neighbouring autonomous region (think state) for almost six years, I haven't observed much in the way of real antipathy.

[Zarnium]

Thanks for the response .

Originally Posted by poli

As an American, this should not sound too strange too you, because secession for financial and cultural reasons is part of US history. Some of the issues of US Civil War are still issues Americans deal with today.

It's been a problem in the past, yes, but actual secession has not been on the table in living memory that I know of. There was all that hubbub over Texas, but if I recall correctly, only 125,000 people or so signed the petition, in a state with a population of 26 million.

[poli]

Before he detracted it, the popular governor of Texas spoke in favor of succession. True, slavery was abolished very long ago but other civil rights issues remain and certainly played a big role in 20th century politics as they do now. I agree with you in that succession is not a viable political tool so far, but resistance to federal intrusion in these matters smells like the same old stuff.

Anyway, I think issues of state's rights and federal rights in the USA are very old and quite fractious. In that way issues Spain faces should not sound too foreign to US natives.

[Villa]

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Could someone explain to me the ins and outs of the current Catalan independence movement in Spain? I've done some cursory research, but I'm a little lost as to exactly why they want independence, why the Spanish government doesn't want them to, and how this is affecting the people of Spain socially.

I know that they want independence generally because they're somewhat culturally distinct and because they feel they'd be better off financially, given the massive economic problems of Spain. I also know generally that the Spanish National Government doesn't want them to leave because it wouldn't be good for the rest of Spain financially, and because national governments usually don't want parts of their country to secede on general principle. However, I don't really know the specifics of either side.

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening? Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written? In the United States, for example, there simply is not any way for a state to leave the union. Existing laws would have to be modified for such a thing to happen.

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

To be honest, as an American, when I hear about people in other countries talking about secession over financial or cultural reasons, it sounds a little odd to me . Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals. We have some rather bitter political wars, but these are based on political affiliation and religion rather than on geographical location. Perhaps this pops up in Europe so much more because they have older, long-standing cultures there, whereas most people in America are descendants of comparatively recent immigrants.

Hola Zarnium,

“We are like we are because Franco’s dictatorship has made us so”.

Francisco Franco fue un dictador de España terrible. Él fue
a la par con Mussolini y Hitler. Lee a continuación y déjeme
saber lo que piensas. A little history of what has gone on in
Catalonia might help you understand the independence
movement in Catalonia. Let me know what you think of it and
if you can understand a little better about why they would want
to be independent.

Franco’s cultural genocide against Catalonia

[Alexls]

Catalonia wants to hold a referendum to decide whether people become independent. The central government doesn't want because it says violates the constitution. But it really is an economic issue. No money (high public debt) and high unemployment.

The central government is responsible for distributing between comunidades autonomas such as Cataluña, Andalucia, etc ..


With the crisis, the comunidades autónomas receive less money. They have to cut public services. Citizens are angry. Catalan politicians blame the government and they threaten with the independence.


When everything was fine, no one talked about independence.


I have Catalan family.


This is my opinion hope I've helped.Excuse me, my English.

[Villa]

Originally Posted by Alexls

Catalonia wants to hold a referendum to decide whether people become independent. The central government doesn't want because it says violates the constitution. But it really is an economic issue. No money (high public debt) and high unemployment.

The central government is responsible for distributing between comunidades autonomas such as Cataluña, Andalucia, etc ..


With the crisis, the comunidades autónomas receive less money. They have to cut public services. Citizens are angry. Catalan politicians blame the government and they threaten with the independence.


When everything was fine, no one talked about independence.


I have Catalan family.


This is my opinion hope I've helped.Excuse me, my English.

The Catalan language in public was banned under the dictatorship of Francisco Franco from 1939 to 1975. Franco was just as bad as Mussolini in Italy at the time. Imagine banning people from speaking their own language. How bad is that? Best thing that ever happened was when Franco passed because now in Catalonia all school teaching is conducted in Catalan, under what is known as the "immersion" system. Spanish is taught as a language subject. Spanish is bascially taught then as a second language in Spain in Catalonia.

[Alexls]

Para comprender el conflicto España-Cataluña, os recomiendo los siguientes libros:

Victus, Albert Sánchez Piñol

España invertebrada, Ortega y Gasset

http://juango.es/Ortega%20Y%20Gasset...vertebrada.pdf

un saludo

[Sancho Panther]

Rajoy will not concede independence because if he did he would then be morally obliged to concede it to the Basque Provinces who fought a prolonged and violent terrorist campaign in support of independence which Franco brutally resisted. Then Andalucía and Asturias would seek it, and so on until they'd all tumble like dominoes.

Furthermore I am convinced that only Barcelona City could be economically self-sufficient and rural Barcelona province and all Girona, Lleida and Tarragona would have to endure poverty.

Furthermore the President of the Generalitat has declared that welfare and social benefits would not increase and nor would taxes be reduced.

The there's the question of admission to the Euro; funding a separate defence budget etc. etc. The problems are endless - my personal view is that it's a stupid and irrational pipe-dream.

In the highly unlikely event of it happening it could even bring down the whole of tha the Spanish State.

[ROBINDESBOIS]

And some other European countries , lets look at france, britanny, Normandy, Pays basque français, etc... italy , The UK, belgium etcc

[Sancho Panther]

I'm not convinced that Catalán independence would necessarily lead to a rush to independence in other country's regions - most are content with the degree of autonomy the presently have anyway; also each country's governments would probably resist total independence too vigorously for that to happen!

[ROBINDESBOIS]

I guess you have a point there. Let' s wait and see. Anyway this is a topic that really exasperates me. Independentist people have an idea and nobody will change their mind . It' s better just to ignore them or take drastic measures.

[poli]

It could start a precedent which seems dangerous to me. As you know, a couple of centuries ago Europe had many nation states in Germany and Italy in particular. It was messy. The only positive thing about it under current laws is whether countries divide or not, they will still be members of the EU. Division of countries like Spain or France or Italy will require the strengthening of the EU (USA style) to prevent the bloody clashes of past centuries.

[ROBINDESBOIS]

I think that in those other countries the linguistic situation is different, in Spain the different languages are used as a weapon, like if that would make them different from the rest of Spain. Spain is a country composed of different regions that took shape and continue evolving throughout the history, some regions were divided into small autonomus communities. We all form the project of Spain, but the apple of the discord is the language from my point of view. When they say they are not Spanish, they mean that nobody is Spanish then. Last night I saw a debate on TV , the most independent politician in that region was asked a bunch of questions, he never answered the questions, his answers were all the same,, that they had the right to decide, and there was sth that shocked me he wanted to become independent and in turn to keep the Spanish nationality because the Spanish constitution didn' t have any mechanisms to discard them of being Spanish, they say they are not Spanish, and they want to keep the Spanish nationality. Come on give me a break.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by poli

The only positive thing about it under current laws is whether countries divide or not, they will still be members of the EU.

If a region breaks away from an EU member, it ceases to be part of the EU. It could apply to join, but the countries which are most concerned about regions breaking away (the UK, France, Spain) would veto it.

[poli]

Originally Posted by pjt33

If a region breaks away from an EU member, it ceases to be part of the EU. It could apply to join, but the countries which are most concerned about regions breaking away (the UK, France, Spain) would veto it.

Then that would be disastrous. Those separatists must be crazy. If they remain under a federation, then it's conceivable--foolish but conceivable.
If they're knocked out of the federation, no good will come of it.

[Sancho Panther]

De acuerdo - ¡tienes razón!

I spent all September staying with the wife's aunt on the costa near Vendrell, one of the days was the Catalán national day, this involved a 'human chain' many kilometres long.

The aunt's elderly friends - a couple across the road participated. A day or two later I told them that the President of the Generalitat had said if they secured independence they be wouldn't be able to increase employment nor reduce taxes, nor increase welfare payments etc.

They said "Oh we don't understand politics and that, we just like dancing, singing and waving flags in the street"!

I mean for God's sake!

[explorator]

Very bad examples, from the point of view of history "Victus" is the product of thirty years of education on separatist values at the Catalonian Public Schooling System. The author, Albert Sánchez Piñol, parts from the assumption that Spain never existed as a whole. This is the main thesis the Nationalist-Separatist parties have been injecting into the Catalonian students by using all the tools the 1978's Constitution Autonomic System gave to the regional governments.
This thesis has been refused so many times by so many serious studies that even Oriol Junqueras, the President of the main separatist party at Catalonia ERC (Catalonian Lefty Republican Party), has recognized that the reason to want an independent Catalonia has no need of a previous independence feeling or history, but the actual fact of just have ended to desire being Spanish anymore.
About the "España invertebrada", written by the Spanish philosopher José Ortega y Gasset, the reason of its failure rests in the common 98's generation intellectuals mistake: taking the name of Castile as a perfect synonymous of Spain. There are lots of doctoral thesis who refuse this work, nowadays Ortega's essay is very out-dated.
My own opinion is simpler:
Until the Nineteenth century, the Spaniards considered themselves as the pride of the western culture, nevertheless, as they traveled abroad they experienced the negative opinion the foreigners had about Spain and they used to come back home with a luggage of pessimism about our history.
The Romanticism and the "Volkgeist" aesthetical styles , improved the local prides as a replacement of the old "Spanish Imperial" one.
In the case of the Basque Country and Catalonia, the weak economy of the nineteenth Spain, placed there, the most part of its small amount of resources (never forget that along this nineteenth century we did lose all our American territories and suffered the brutal invasion from the French and British army's), in order to take advantage of their ports and geographical proximity whit the French border.
This fact had two consequences: first the life standards there became to be better than those of the other parts of Spain, second, as the Basque and Catalonian people compared themselves with the humble "maketos" or "txarnegos", as they called (and still today call) to the people from the rest of Spain who arrived to work as proletarians at their factories, a feeling of superiority started to raise.
The twentieth century, brought some political, economical and social crisis, a civil war and the general's Franco's dictatorship. During the period of illegalization of the political parties, as all of them had the same enemy, a climate of solidarity among their members was produced. Even if their theoretical and practical aims were as contradictory as reaching the rupture of Spain, the non separatist parties eased the separatist ones their way to the institutions once the democratic system was reinstituted after the dictator's death.

After their arrival to the autonomous regional institutions, the separatist parties, showed a moderated and ready to collaborate discourse to the Spanish Parliament parties, by the price of getting the most administrative and political competences in their territories, they provided them at Madrid Chamber, the parliamentary support they needed to keep themselves in the power.

As a result today, the central government of Spain has no possibility to make accomplish its laws at Catalonia and the Basque Country. In fact the separatist parties complaint about the taxes, by saying "Spain steals us" but the regional governement institutions under their control, are the only power to enforce the Spanish tax law in Catalonia, the Basque Country and Navarra , and any other legal regulation into their territories. In my opinion they 've already got an independence "de facto".

About the possibility of triumph of a secessionist referendum, I think that it probably will result in a secession, because thirty years fostering the feeling of contempt against the Spanish culture and the use of the vernacular languages as a barrier are very strong advantages. Advantages that they also have in the psycological field, as they are fighting for the dream (true or false) of an "independent Catalonian paradise" while the loyalist efforts are just aimed to keep the current "status quo".

On the other hand, facts as the inclusion of the sixteen year old boys and girls as voters, and even the illegal immigrants, sugest some lack of seriousness about the referendum.
In other words, if they don't get the independence soon, it will be only because their politicians really don't wish it.

[Sancho Panther]

Prime Minister Rajoy has stated that if they (the Generalitat) try to continue with the proposed referendum he will prevent it by legal measures.

He has little option really, but you can bet your life that that will provoke the extremists further - up to and including terrorism I forsee.

Despite the failure of ETA to achieve anything. Who was it who said "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them?".