British English vs. American English

[aleCcowaN]

The supposed -and very "imaginative"- differences and features of different "accents" regarding "elisions" and other ""s are some of them wrong and most of them different registers inside the same country and not differences between countries -there are differences indeed, but not elided "s"-. It's the "y'all" and "ain't" this side of the Grande River. Youtube, Skype and all of the monstersphere is not the place to understand how language works as it all becomes the "greatest common divisor" of human communication ¿No' entendemo' o no no' entendemo'? (extremely vulgar register in most countries; between colloquial and vulgar in some regions). This is like discussing that in some "countries" they say "semos ma' i quanno haiga lu' salimo' i lo' bamo' a rrrebenta' ". Poppycock!

If I were to write here a taxonomy of English accents departing from what I hear, what I fail to hear, what I'm not sure about and what I don't know for sure, I could run wild for pages and pages.

Feel free to not understand what I'm saying.

[Caballero]

In the US we learn Latin American Spanish, which has all of those features that you mentioned.

The above was for Perikles.

I've never heard an Argentine pronounce all (or even most of) the s's. You guys might not drop them completely, but you definitely aspirate them, which sounds the same as dropping them to us.
Even your president does that. Maybe not all the final s's, but the other s's (e.g. esta -> ehta)

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Caballero

I've never heard an Argentine pronounce all (or even most of) the s's. You guys might not drop them completely, but you definitely aspirate them, which sounds the same as dropping them to us.
Even your president does that. Maybe not all the final s's, but the other s's (e.g. esta -> ehta)

So you should have been communicating with a very small subset. I bet you simply don't perceive the "s" sound in certain conditions. Pronouncing ending "s" as English "h" is a feature of about one third of the provinces, and some liaison between final and initial "s" is also common (I use it myself when I mimic -without intention- the accent of some people of Santa Fe and Entre Ríos). But a nonpronounced "s" is a feature you'll only hear in very low levels -that doesn't mean that they have no money and they won't show a middle class consumerism, including skyping with Mongols and Bengals, if possible-.

Fortunately I hear the "s", including while communicating with Paraguayan and Bolivian workers. But I can't stand TV programs were everybody shout and speak like they do in the slums, so I save myself the torture of trying to conciliate that kind of an accent -or better, that kind of logics-. About the president, setting aside some "charming vulgarisms" did on purpose now and then to seduce certain sector, lack of "s" sound is not part of this person's defects.

It looks like you are lacking the ability to sort out all the different registers, nuances, regionalisms and idiolects, what would be more than OK, if you didn't insist in lecturing natives and students with your half baked observations.

[Caballero]

I bet you simply don't perceive the "s" sound in certain conditions.

I probably don't hear the s in the same way that you do. In any event, to me at least, the Canarian accent to me seems to be less difficult to understand than the accent from Northern Spain, as to me it sounds more similar to most Latin American accents I've heard. I also don't have any negative associations or prejudices towards it, since to me, an English speaker not yet fluent in Spanish, it's just one more variety of Spanish.

[aleCcowaN]

I've just heard myself saying quickly "¡pero, las cosas que dicen!" where soft and brief "s" sounds clash with hard sounds "k" and I see why you may think we don't pronounce the ending "-s". They may be not only aspirated but even inhaled. I assure you they are there. You are experiencing what Spanish speakers suffer with more than a dozen English sounds. I think that I can translate the problem into a Spanish speaker who tends to say "good-a-books" hearing native speakers saying quickly "good books" and then thinking they are saying "goo books". You'd probably say you pronounce the "d" plenty the same way I assure you we pronounce the "s".

But for Canarians, in a popular level, they do omit the final "s" and even other consonants: "según ello', hablan de lo mejó". But any regional language at a popular level has a lot of strange sounds. Five Spanish vowels -maybe 10 or 12 if you are analytical and strict- become more than two dozens in Paraguayan. They have more a's than English and more e's than French.

[poli]

No soy experto en los acentos pero ello en lugar de ellos que se oye en las islas Canarias parece caribeño, pero a veces en los acentos caribeños la palabra ello está seguida por "j". Es una jota débil.

Tampoco estoy seguro que existe un acento argentino. En los accentos
rioplatences existen, y cualquiera persona que conoce un poquito español
puede identificarlo. Hoy hablé con una señorita de Mendoza, y su acento
tenía poco de ver con el modo en que la gente de Buenos Aires hablan.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by poli

No soy experto en los acentos pero ello en lugar de ellos que se oye en las islas Canarias parece caribeño, pero a veces en los acentos caribeños la palabra ello está seguida por "j". Es una jota débil.

Tampoco estoy seguro que exista un acento argentino. En los accentos
rioplatences existen, y cualquiera persona que conoce un poquito español
puede identificarlo. Hoy hablé con una señorita de Mendoza, y su acento
tenía poco de ver con el modo en que la gente de Buenos Aires hablan.

Of course, there's no such thing as an "Argentinian" accent nor a Canarian accent and least of all a Buenos Aires' accent.

If you do an experiment and gather six people from BA City -3 natives, 2 Argentines migrated and 1 foreigner, which is similar to the population composition-, add a Montevidean and you gather a bunch of porteños and ask who are the three natives by their accents -and looks if you like-, the most likely outcome is a threesome with the Montevidean, an Argentine migrated and just one of the truly natives.

It's just in Internet fora that people buy crayolas and start depicting imaginary realities, like that of having evidently pretty different accents in Spain, but not having that in countries with similar populations, like Colombia and Argentina, but several times bigger, or both several times bigger and 2.5x populated like Mexico, or not much bigger and less populated like Chile, but spread from the latitude of Ethiopia to the latitude of Norway.

The "national" accent or accents are those meta-accents that make pretty uniform the way of speaking of educated people in large cities and highly educated people in small cities and towns, mainly chiseled around the accents of their high-mid-class from their capitals or largest commercial and industrial cities. And it's a matter of geography and not a matter of class. Upper classes are insignificant in numbers and lower-mid and lower classes resist any standardization by staying extremely attached to their localisms.

[poli]

New York has many different accents, but there is a New York sound, and anyone with some English knowledge will be able to distiguish it from the neighboring Philadelphia sound. I know that New York is not unique to this, and, the way it sounds to me, the Buenos Aires sound has Italian inflection that makes it identifiable. This is why I was careful to choose the word acentos rioplatenses instead of acento rioplatense.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by poli

New York has many different accents, but there is a New York sound, and anyone with some English knowledge will be able to distiguish it from the neighboring Philadelphia sound.

New York accents were many and varied to me when I was there. I think I recognize "el cantito" (the rhythmic part of the accent) from the infectious accent in the musical theme of The Nanny. The movie from the musical Rent reminded me the accents I heard there, but actor Daniel London there sounded a little bit philadelphish to me -an interview where he is speaking in the first part-.

Originally Posted by poli

I know that New York is not unique to this, and, the way it sounds to me, the Buenos Aires sound has Italian inflection that makes it identifiable. This is why I was careful to choose the word acentos rioplatenses instead of acento rioplatense.

Lingua castigliana con cadenza napoletana (mimicking "lingua toscana in boca romana"). The very accent of Guillermo Franchella in "El secreto de sus ojos", the de facto standard for Buenos Aires back in the sixties and seventies -Italian rhythm, but not so South Italian-. I speak with a similar accent, but a bit more both South Italian and Genovesi together with gaucho like elements from the 19th century, what reveals I'm from the southern part of downtown Buenos Aires.

[poli]

I think Daniel has an educated east coast accent. It's pretty obvious
that he had higher education at a college with a liberal point of view. If he's from Philadelphia, his neighborhood is probably northwest---far from Blue collar tough guys from South Philly or South Jersey (New Jersey) who make the sound their own.

There are examples Philadelphia accents on line; just google Philadelphia accents. Some of them are exaggerated, but there's truth to them. Here's an example of less exaggerated Philadelphia accents. Additionally towel is pronounced tal, for is pronounced foor, and on is pronounced awn. It can sound really goofy to me especially in southern suburbs (northern Delaware).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKpQRgMRAf4

[aleCcowaN]

Excellent video. Thanks a lot.

About the strange l's sound I had a lot of troubles in California -and here with Californian acquaintances-. To me it sounds like some kind of "o", like a French that prepared the throat to say an r but decides to say an l.

For us it is very confusing to sort out accents because we hear most English from films and songs, and in TV everybody is faking accents or you have loving TV families where each member has his or her own accent. The British playing the American or vice-versa are also confusing -from the accent part of speech-. Even the American in Shakespeare plays faking a British pretty modern accent. Why they do that? Shakespeare is common heritage. Why don't use an American accent with some retouches?

On a side note: I found that Daniel London is from Pittsburgh, went to Oberlin College near Cleveland, and moved to New York.

I also want to ask native opinions about how it is perceived British actors playing the American, and vice versa. I mean, is it obviously fake? is it unlocalized?

I can recall now Gwyneth Paltrow and Renée Zellweger playing the English and a complete shade of British actors: Helen Mirren in Love Ranch; Joe Anderson in Across the Universe (maybe too much of an accent); Toby Jones and Daniel Craig in Infame (a good pair with Capote to watch in a rainy Sunday of late Autumn); Daniel Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood (though the strange accent may be understood as 1900's still new South West and people going the West to reinvent themselves). I would like to know your opinion about that.

[poli]

Depende en el actor pero hay actores ingleses que tienen gran exito
en su habilidad de utilizar acentos americanos. Hugh Laurie es un ejemplo.
Hace tres meses fui a ver "How to Succeed in Business Without Trying" con Daniel Radcliffe. Su acento era tan bueno que olvidé su nacionalidad. En el pasado Vivian Leigh merecía su fama por su acento en "Tranvía llamada deseo", pero menos por su papel en "Lo que el viento se llevó"(hecho cuando era muy joven)

Parte del arte de actuación es ser un buen mímico, y me parece que hay muchos actores ingleses tienen el don imitar americanos. Hay americanos que comparten este don. Ahora mismo recuerdo Bette Davis y Katherine Hepburn.

Es mejor usar un acento inglés cuando interprete Shakepeare, porque
si no lo usa suena incongruente, pero puede cambiarlo si presenta
una historia de Shakespeare en otra época. En Shakespeare clásico frecuentamente el inglés que se usa es del registro más alto, y el inglés de este registro parece el inglés americano del mismo registro.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I also want to ask native opinions about how it is perceived British actors playing the American, and vice versa. I mean, is it obviously fake? is it unlocalized?

I have to admit that suspension of disbelief works really well on me ... I can never tell when an actor is faking an accent. I don't notice... Like Keira Sedgwick in The Closer - the actress is a New Yorker and the role is a southerner (accents are extremely different). I watch the show a lot, but then when I see an interview with her and she's talking with her normal NY accent, I'm always horrified....

I personally have a lot of difficulty understanding British/Scottish/Irish accents. One summer I was in France and England. I spent a couple of weeks in France first, and had no difficulty understanding the accents of the French people who were speaking English as a non-native language. Then I took the EuroStar to London and spent a week completely lost because I NEVER understood what ANYone said......

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Then I took the EuroStar to London and spent a week completely lost because I NEVER understood what ANYone said......

Did anybody understand you?

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Did anybody understand you?

Probably not!!

[Awaken]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I also want to ask native opinions about how it is perceived British actors playing the American, and vice versa. I mean, is it obviously fake? is it unlocalized?

It depends on the actor. Hugh Laurie is one of the most impressive to me. His accent is very clean and I never took him for a Brit. Then I saw him on an interview and was completely surprised by how strong his English accent was. Christian Bale is another one. The very high quality actors can truly "fake" it well. The 2nd tier actors have a tougher time.

In my opinion, the fake accents that are more apparent to me are the Southern accent and the Boston accent. Both are very strong, but have unique subtleties that most actors can't master. I am from the South, so I can usually spot the fake Southern accents, but I can occasionally spot the fake Boston ones as well.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by poli

Depende en del actor pero hay actores ingleses que tienen gran exito - "Depender" usa la preposición "de"

En el pasado Vivian Leigh merecía mereció su fama por su acento en "Tranvía llamada deseo",

Parte del arte de la actuación es ser un buen

Ahora mismo recuerdo a Bette Davis y Katherine Hepburn.

Es mejor usar un acento inglés cuando se interprete Shakepeare, porque
si no lo se usa suena incongruente, pero puede cambiarse si presenta una historia de Shakespeare en otra época.

Espero que no te importe que te corrija, pero lo has pedido..

[poli]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

Espero que no te importe que te corrija, pero lo has pedido..

Espero que me corrijas. Gracias.

[aleCcowaN]

Thank you guys for all of your feedback.

I didn't know Hugh Laurie was English (but I didn't hear him much, as I abhor Dr. House -the concept, because the actors are really nice-), surely his musical abilities helped him.

I would like to ask you about examples you can give of actors -or characters- in movies and series, whose accent is OK or whose accent is perceived as fake. That's not a trivia question, because it allows me and everyone to compare and test our abilities and know if we got "it". For instance, like Lou Ann, I also like The Closer -I watched maybe a whole season- but I never realized that the main character is supposed to be from Georgia -I had a hard time understanding a friend of mine from Athens, though she sounded like Julia Roberts but with stronger accent-.

@Awaken, what do you think of the accents in, for instance, Justified? Some programs sound like Noah's arch to me -just a couple from every place, so to speak-, and this is one of them.

Also, in The Glades I have a hard time finding big differences between the detective come from Chicago and his co-workers from Florida.

Some months ago I watched on-line a program from Australia with a famous guest scientist from UK or USA -who died a few days later, I can't recall his name now- and I was amazed for the variety of accents within Australia and all of them mostly different to all the accents I've heard. Mamma mia!!!

[poli]

Hard question,but internet helped. This is excellent because you will hear
the clips and not just see the names. Madonna's British is really awful, even though she lived in Britain for years.
http://www.empireonline.com/features...-accents/5.asp

Of course this is one-sided showing struggling Americans, but honestly
I think most English actors that I have seen doing American accents
are pretty good. Maybe standard American English is easy to imitate.

Chicago accents are very easy to identify. The letter A is the giveaway.

In the first half of the twentieth century, many American actors were coached to lose their regional American accents and adapt what I would
call American stage English. They took this accent to Hollywood with them, so it's documented. The accent was somewhere between New Yawk society and the kings English, and doubt anyone who wasn't an actor or a speech coach ever used it. Some were really good at it though. Claudette Colbert and Warren William and Rita Hayworth are examples of success. Others failed comically like Ruby Keeler, while others didn't even try (Jean Harlow, Humphey Bogart, James Cagney).