Spanish b/v

[laepelba]

I am having some concerns about my pronunciations. We've discussed this before ... and I got some great advice about my "r"'s and "rr"'s. I am currently in LOVE with the song "verde"!

Anyway - my new pronunciation question is about the "b/v" sounds. I was taught (long ago) that in Spanish, the "b" and the "v" are pronounced exactly the same. And that is how I have been pronouncing them. "Bebo café" and "Vivo en Washington, DC" use the same consonant sounds the way I say them. Now in the past week and a half, I have had several different (Salvadoran) people tell me that they have to be pronounced differently, and I am confused....

I have looked online and have found the following:
- b/v sound the same: http://www.studyspanish.com/pronunciation/letter_bv.htm
- b/v sound the same: http://www.123teachme.com/learn_spanish/pronunciation
- and so on ... everywhere I looked, it said "b and v exactly the same"...

SOOoooo - I am assuming that it's a regional thing, right? So my real question is this: my main regions of focus are Peru and Uruguay because the closest friends I have who speak Spanish are from those countries. And although the conference I may attend in Mexico (May) will include people from all over Latin America ... I am hoping to go to Peru and Uruguay this July, and want to be somewhat understandable (!!??) to the native speakers there....

Thanks!!!

[Rusty]

B and V are pronounced exactly the same. However, there are two pronunciations of the B/V. When these letters fall between vowels, the B/V is 'softened' - you say an English B, but you don't totally close your lips together (you get very close to it, but you don't). So, in the word beber (and vivir), there are two different pronunciations of the letter b (v).
Other than the difference between an inital/post-consonant b/v and an intervocal b/v, if someone tells you that b and v are pronounced differently, this is a regional thing.

[Tomisimo]

As Rusty says, the b and v are both pronounced the same. Normally they are a pronounced just like in English as a stop or plosive consonant meaning that you close your lips and they pronounce the sound. When the b or v comes between vowels, it changes to a fricative meaning you touch your lips together but don't close them. Try ponouncing a b without totally closing your lips-- the whole time air should be escaping from the mouth.

Another aspect of this is hypercorrection or overcompensation. This is a linguistic concept where people see the two letters look different, or they study a foreign language (English/French) where the sounds are different, and in a proscriptive manner, and in an effort to sound more educated, start pronouncing the b and v differently, for instance as they are pronounced in English.

[chileno]

Although B and V are pronounced exactly the same. They should be pronounced exactly the same as in english. We are taught in our Castelian classes the difference between both.

Of those classes I only remember the terms "fricativo" and something like "palatar"?

Angelica, Rusty and David. Can you add some to this? That you know already. I know, I know. I can always look in up in the internet. :-)

Hernan.

[laepelba]

The funny thing is that you're all confirming what I already thought. "B and V the same in Spanish." I'm not saying I have it *right* ... as in, I don't know that I make the right sound ... the right amount of teeth vs. lip vs. air vs. everything else. But I've been pronouncing them exactly the same. These three Salvadoran girls (who don't know each other) have ALL said "NO - they should be two very different sounds. The B more explosive and the V softer." Thus I assumed a regional difference.

Do you know what I'd find in Peru or in Lima?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The funny thing is that you're all confirming what I already thought. "B and V the same in Spanish." I'm not saying I have it *right* ... as in, I don't know that I make the right sound ... the right amount of teeth vs. lip vs. air vs. everything else. But I've been pronouncing them exactly the same. These three Salvadoran girls (who don't know each other) have ALL said "NO - they should be two very different sounds. The B more explosive and the V softer." Thus I assumed a regional difference.

Yes, you are assuming correctly, but also it happens within a spanish country. :-)

Use as you would use it in English, and you will not miss it, not will be missed.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Do you know what I'd find in Peru or in Lima?

Both.


Hernan.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Yes, you are assuming correctly, but also it happens within a spanish country. :-)

Use as you would use it in English, and you will not miss it, not will be missed.



Both.


Hernan.

I actually meant to say "peru or uruguay", but you get the picture.

Both, huh. I just don't want to sound so stupid as to not get it. I'm going to be "tutored" by a former student of mine who is Salvadoran, and she is determined to teach me the difference between B's and V's ... and I'm a bit resistant. She insists there's a difference that I need to learn.

If it's similar to someone from Mississippi coming to New York with a gorgeous southern drawl, where New Yorkers (like me, anyway) find the sound of the drawl very pleasing, then I'd love to pick up a little bit of an accent like that. BUT ... if it's like the opposite ... where a New Yorker goes to the South and sounds horrid to the Southern ears, then I want to avoid it........

Maybe I should just concentrate on learning my false cognates...

[Rusty]

When in Rome ...

When everyone around you pronounces the b and v differently, you may choose to sound like them. When you're in the rest of the places where the b and v are pronounced the same, you may choose to sound like the rest of us.

Kidding aside, no one is going to think you sound terrible. You'll have an accent (try as you might), yes, but from what I hear, accents are adored by all. Open your mouth and sing your song.

[laepelba]

You're right - I'm a little too hyper concerned about the accent for my own good. I'm GOING to have an accent no matter what. I may as well focus my efforts on the words and sentences.... Off to write in Spanish for a post in "General Chit Chat". We'll see if I succeed at that.

[CrOtALiTo]

Hey. Only I can tell you that you must have careful with the pronunciation with the V and B, they sound same in the context, but they has distinct meaning. You can say Vaca nor Baca those both words does not meaning the same.

[laepelba]

Ahah! The difference between "vaca" and "baca" is definitely significant.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by Rusty

When in Rome ...

When everyone around you pronounces the b and v differently, you may choose to sound like them. When you're in the rest of the places where the b and v are pronounced the same, you may choose to sound like the rest of us.

Kidding aside, no one is going to think you sound terrible. You'll have an accent (try as you might), yes, but from what I hear, accents are adored by all. Open your mouth and sing your song.

@laepelba: Follow Rusty's advice.

The truth is that difference is relevant only in writing. "V" and "b" sounds are not as crucial in Spanish as they are in other languages. If you're going to set your attention on pronunciation, the priority will be in vocals, and for accent reasons, "r"/"rr", "l"/"ll" and "ñ"; if you went to Spain, "s" and "z"/"c" should be also to be cared for.


[offtopic] After learning some French, a Mexican friend of mine visited Paris and decided to order some "hot wine" in a restaurant. That should be "vin chaud", but if you pronounce "vin" with a Spanish "b/v", the word in French sounds like "bain chaud" ("a hot bath"), so when he spoke, the waiter perplexedly looked at him asked "here and now?!" ... My friend learnt the hard way that there is a difference... in other languages. [/offtopic]


@Chileno: it is true that most of us have been taught in school there is a "b labial" and a "v labiodental", but even the Academy has denied such difference, so I play it on the easy side.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@laepelba: Follow Rusty's advice.

The truth is that difference is relevant only in writing. "V" and "b" sounds are not as crucial in Spanish as they are in other languages. If you're going to set your attention on pronunciation, the priority will be in vocals, and for accent reasons, "r"/"rr", "l"/"ll" and "ñ"; if you went to Spain, "s" and "z"/"c" should be also to be cared for.

Yeah - I'm really, really struggling with the "r" and "rr" - BOTH of them. I think I'm okay with an "r" in the middle of a word between two vowels. That's the ONLY one I think I'm doing correctly.

I started a thread a while back (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=2824) discussing my pronunciation dilemmas. I have since fallen in love with the song "Verde" that was introduced to me there (I even have it as the ring tone on my iPhone!) I have also memorized the trabalenguas about the perro de San Roque.

Yet, I'm still convinced I'm saying the following incorrectly:
- "r"s at the beginning and ends of words
- "r"s in the middle of words with a consonant on either side ("verde" still trips me up, as does "tarde" and "madre", etc.)
- "rr"s everywhere

This is why I have secured a "tutor" - a former student who speaks Spanish with her parents at home (the parents are from El Salvador). She will definitely work with me on pronunciation (I'm looking forward to that), which is very difficult to get from the discussions here on Tomísimo and through my language learning software. Correcting the "r"s and "rr"s will be my first goal.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I actually meant to say "peru or uruguay", but you get the picture.

Both, huh. I just don't want to sound so stupid as to not get it. I'm going to be "tutored" by a former student of mine who is Salvadoran, and she is determined to teach me the difference between B's and V's ... and I'm a bit resistant. She insists there's a difference that I need to learn.

If it's similar to someone from Mississippi coming to New York with a gorgeous southern drawl, where New Yorkers (like me, anyway) find the sound of the drawl very pleasing, then I'd love to pick up a little bit of an accent like that. BUT ... if it's like the opposite ... where a New Yorker goes to the South and sounds horrid to the Southern ears, then I want to avoid it........

Maybe I should just concentrate on learning my false cognates...

If you are going to sound at all, it will be as a foreigner. Nothing more, nothing less. Never stupid or anything near that. :-)

Plus, like Rusty already advised, you are going to sound adorable.


About false cognates

You, Angelica, Rusty and David:

Please list your false cognates. Los miro pero no me entran...:-)

Hernan

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Chileno: it is true that most of us have been taught in school there is a "b labial" and a "v labiodental", but even the Academy has denied such difference, so I play it on the easy side.

Is it true? I cannot believe that. And all this time making hincapié on it. ;->

I tell my people all the time that for us barco o varco is the same thing because it floats!

Hernan.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Yeah - I'm really, really struggling with the "r" and "rr" - BOTH of them. I think I'm okay with an "r" in the middle of a word between two vowels. That's the ONLY one I think I'm doing correctly.

Do you know how to imitate an Irish accent?

Laepelba:

About Vaca and Baca.

The first one is an animal, and the second, too! :-)

I mean the second is a last name.

Hernan.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

If you are going to sound at all, it will be as a foreigner. Nothing more, nothing less. Never stupid or anything near that. :-)

Plus, like Rusty already advised, you are going to sound adorable.


About false cognates

You, Angelica, Rusty and David:

Please list your false cognates. Los miro pero no me entran...:-)

Hernan

I love it here because you people always make me smile ... even whilst learning something that is difficult for me. I have gotten the impression that spanish-speakers are much more generous in their attitudes toward non-native speakers than are we English speakers, many of whom can be quite rude. I have to get over my inhibitions and just HABLA!

Are you asking for examples of false cognates?

Originally Posted by chileno

Is it true? I cannot believe that. And all this time making hincapié on it. ;->

I tell my people all the time that for us barco o varco is the same thing because it floats!

Hernan.

Qué es "varco"? I cannot find it in the dictionary..... (I sense a joke coming on....)

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I love it here because you people always make me smile ... even whilst learning something that is difficult for me. I have gotten the impression that spanish-speakers are much more generous in their attitudes toward non-native speakers than are we English speakers, many of whom can be quite rude. I have to get over my inhibitions and just HABLAR!

that's write! oops right... :-)

HABLA y ESCRIBE, But make notes of corrections. Spanish is hard to understand grammatically. But the easiest language to read and speak. Only through writing a lot you will accomplish a lot too.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Are you asking for examples of false cognates?

From everybody.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Qué es "varco"? I cannot find it in the dictionary..... (I sense a joke coming on....)

But that one I will explain later, when the rest of the people answer. I think it is funny, but then again. I "think" I am funny.

Hernan.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Do you know how to imitate an Irish accent?

I missed a couple of your posts while I was typing... and, no, I cannot imitate an Irish accent. Although one of the podcasts that I listen to about learning spanish is done by some Scottish people, and they seem to have no problem at all with the r's and rr's. I've heard that if you can speak with an Irish accent in English, you're fine for r's in Spanish. My tongue is having a VERY difficult time doing that sound!!

Originally Posted by chileno

that's write! oops right... :-)

HABLA y ESCRIBE, But make notes of corrections. Spanish is hard to understand grammatically. But the easiest language to read and speak. Only through writing a lot you will accomplish a lot too.

I am definitely finding the opportunity to write here! I do NOT have an opportunity to talk! I'm working on that - hopefully will be getting together with a former student for conversational tutoring weekly starting this week. I'm looking forward to it ... but a little bit intimidated!

Originally Posted by chileno

From everybody.

Well, start with "fútbol" and "football" - the first is equivalent to English "soccer". I'm not sure if there is a spanish word for "football" besides "American Football"....

Or how about "pan" y "pan" - in English it's a thing you cook on ("cacerola"?) and in Spanish it's bread.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

The Academia has an article on the fact that v and b are not pronounced differently in its "doubt dictionary".

Maybe someone with more experience in translating could post it here...


@Chileno: Varco? Oil company? (Eso es humor negro.)

As for the false cognates: These are words that one thinks at first they mean the same in both languages because they look alike, but in fact they don't.
Some examples below:

• "English word" = "explanation" ≠ "Spanish word" = "explanation"

• actual = something existing and real ≠ actual = something that is happening now

• to attend = to be present at some place ≠ atender = to assist

• to assist = to help ≠ asistir = to be present at some place

• carpet ("alfombra") = floor covering ≠ carpeta = table cover

• compromise = a settlement of differences ≠ compromiso = an engagement

• to molest ≈ to subject to unwanted sexual activity ≠ molestar = to annoy

• sensible ("sensato") = exhibiting good sense ≠ sensible ("sensitive") = capable of perceiving sensations

• topic ("tema") = the subject of a discussion ≠ tópico = commonplace, local

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I am definitely finding the opportunity to write here! I do NOT have an opportunity to talk! I'm working on that - hopefully will be getting together with a former student for conversational tutoring weekly starting this week. I'm looking forward to it ... but a little bit intimidated!

Speak it, and listen to your voice. Start by following these phonetics guide:

a = ah
e = eh
i = ee
o = awe <- this one is the closest to our o that I can find. :/
u = oo

All the consonants are more or less pronounced the same.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Well, start with "fútbol" and "football" - the first is equivalent to English "soccer". I'm not sure if there is a spanish word for "football" besides "American Football"....

That is called barbarism in my country.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Or how about "pan" y "pan" - in English it's a thing you cook on ("cacerola"?) and in Spanish it's bread.

That might be one. I am not sure.

:-)

Hernan.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

The Academia has an article on the fact that v and b are not pronounced differently in its "doubt dictionary".

Maybe someone with more experience in translating could post it here...

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Chileno: Varco? Oil company? (Eso es humor negro.)

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

As for the false cognates: These are words that one thinks at first they mean the same in both languages because they look alike, but in fact they don't.
Some examples below:

• "English word" = "explanation" ≠ "Spanish word" = "explanation"

• actual = something existing and real ≠ actual = something that is happening now

• to attend = to be present at some place ≠ atender = to assist

• to assist = to help ≠ asistir = to be present at some place

• carpet ("alfombra") = floor covering ≠ carpeta = table cover

• compromise = a settlement of differences ≠ compromiso = an engagement

• to molest ≈ to subject to unwanted sexual activity ≠ molestar = to annoy

• sensible ("sensato") = exhibiting good sense ≠ sensible ("sensitive") = capable of perceiving sensations

• topic ("tema") = the subject of a discussion ≠ tópico = commonplace, local

hmmm be careful on some of these, they mean the same, what happens is in English they *use* more a meaning than the other but both means the same.

Topic is ONE! I got one! :-)

I know about topic in spanish, and I would have sworn that topico as theme was ok in spanish! :-)


About carpet. And carpeta. In chile means a manila folder. and that's it. when somebody speaks spanglish, then is when carpeta comes out... :/

Thanks Angelica.

Hernan.