Subjunctive exercise 14-13

[laepelba]

Please correct my answers. I specifically want to know if I used the subjunctive/indicative correctly. Thank you!!

Las direcciones: Situaciones individuales. Responde a las preguntas con una respuesta lógica. Usa una forma de indicative o de subjuntivo de acuerdo a la frase. You may use the infinitive suggested in parentheses.

My answers in bold print.

1) Mi amiga Anita necesita un disfraz para Halloween. ¿Conocen Uds. una tienda que (vender) venda disfrazes? <-- I used the subjunctive because the store may or may not exist...

2) ¿Quién tiene una cura para la tristeza? Hay un filósofo quien (decir) dice "no te preocupes, sea feliz". <-- I used the indicative because this "philosopher" really did say these words.

3) Marcos busca un jugador de tenis para el equipo de su universidad. ¿Hay alguien que (conocer) conozca que juegue tenis? <-- I used the subjunctive because I don't know if there's someone who knows such a player...

4) Yo quiero un auto nuevo y barato. No hay un auto nuevo que (ser) es barato. <-- I used the indicative because it is a fact that there is no inexpensive new auto.

5) Prefiero vivir en un barrio muy tranquilo. ¿Conoce Ud. un barrio donde (haber) haya .... ??? <-- I couldn't even do this problem, as I had no idea what the question really means with "haber"........ But I used the subjunctive "haya" because such a neighborhood may or may not exist.

6) Mi amigo busca un apartamento cerca de un campo de golf. Nosotros alquilamos una casa que (estar) está cerca de un campo de golf. <-- I used the indicative because the renting of such an apartment is going on in present reality.

These exercises where you have to create your own sentences are SO difficult for me because I am not very creative, and simply don't have the imagination to figure out a way to end a sentence that someone else began............. (I'm so glad I'm a mathematician!!)

Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated!! (Especially some suggestions about what to write for #5...)

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Please correct my answers. I specifically want to know if I used the subjunctive/indicative correctly. Thank you!!

Las direcciones: Situaciones individuales. Responde a las preguntas con una respuesta lógica. Usa una forma de indicative o de subjuntivo de acuerdo a la frase. You may use the infinitive suggested in parentheses.

My answers in bold print.

1) Mi amiga Anita necesita un disfraz para Halloween. ¿Conocen Uds. una tienda que (vender) venda disfrazes? <-- I used the subjunctive because the store may or may not exist...

To me both indicative and subjunctive can be used. It isn't because the store might exist or not, but whether they know of one for sure. Usually the subjunctive is used.

2) ¿Quién tiene una cura para la tristeza? Hay un filósofo quien (decir) dice "no te preocupes, sea feliz". <-- I used the indicative because this "philosopher" really did say these words.

In this case you can use the present and the past (whatever) tense. "dijo/decía"

3) Marcos busca un jugador de tenis para el equipo de su universidad. ¿Hay alguien que (conocer) conozca a alguien que juegue tenis? <-- I used the subjunctive because I don't know if there's someone who knows such a player...

Again, like in #1, you could be using the indicative also, because you might be asking who knows for sure of someone who plays tennis. Generalmente the subjunctive will be used.

4) Yo quiero un auto nuevo y barato. No hay un auto nuevo que (ser) es barato. <-- I used the indicative because it is a fact that there is no inexpensive new auto.

Again, exactly like # 1 and 3

5) Prefiero vivir en un barrio muy tranquilo. ¿Conoce Ud. un barrio donde (haber) haya .... ??? <-- I couldn't even do this problem, as I had no idea what the question really means with "haber"........ But I used the subjunctive "haya" because such a neighborhood may or may not exist.

Depends on how you formulate the question.

¿Conoce Ud. dónde hay un barrio tranquilo? - Do you know where there is a quiet neighborhood?

or

¿Conoce Ud. un barrio donde haya tranquilidad? - Do you know a neighborhood where there is quietness,tranquility?

6) Mi amigo busca un apartamento cerca de un campo de golf. Nosotros alquilamos una casa que (estar) está cerca de un campo de golf. <-- I used the indicative because the renting of such an apartment is going on in present reality.

Like #1 etc.

The fact was while they were looking for it

These exercises where you have to create your own sentences are SO difficult for me because I am not very creative, and simply don't have the imagination to figure out a way to end a sentence that someone else began............. (I'm so glad I'm a mathematician!!)

Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated!! (Especially some suggestions about what to write for #5...)

I've always had problems to create phrases etc, like you. That's why I followed my own method.

[JPablo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

My answers in bold print.
1) Mi amiga Anita necesita un disfraz para Halloween. ¿Conocen Uds. una tienda que (vender) venda disfraces? <-- I used the subjunctive because the store may or may not exist...
Perfect.
2) ¿Quién tiene una cura para la tristeza? Hay un filósofo quien (decir) dice "no te preocupes, sea feliz". <-- I used the indicative because this "philosopher" really did say these words.
Correct, but see the 2 options here on the "quotation"
"no te preocupes sé feliz.
"no se preocupe sea feliz.

You could also go with "...que decía: ve en busca de tus metas y juega en la vida".

3) Marcos busca un jugador de tenis para el equipo de su universidad. ¿Hay alguien que (conocer) conozca a un estudiante que juegue tenis? <-- I used the subjunctive because I don't know if there's someone who knows such a player...
Correct, but you have to have "a un estudiante" "a una persona" "a alguien", to make the sentence complete.

4) Yo quiero un auto nuevo y barato. No hay un auto nuevo que (ser) es barato. <-- I used the indicative because it is a fact that there is no inexpensive new auto.
Fine, but I would naturally go with "que sea barato". Your logic is sound, but somehow I am more used to the subjunctive here...

5) Prefiero vivir en un barrio muy tranquilo. ¿Conoce Ud. un barrio donde (haber) haya .... ??? <-- I couldn't even do this problem, as I had no idea what the question really means with "haber"........ But I used the subjunctive "haya" because such a neighborhood may or may not exist.
Correct, "donde haya paz y tranquilidad".
6) Mi amigo busca un apartamento cerca de un campo de golf. Nosotros alquilamos una casa que (estar) está cerca de un campo de golf. <-- I used the indicative because the renting of such an apartment is going on in present reality.
Correct.
These exercises where you have to create your own sentences are SO difficult for me because I am not very creative, and simply don't have the imagination to figure out a way to end a sentence that someone else began............. (I'm so glad I'm a mathematician!!)
(Hey, Lewis Carroll was a mathematician 2! It's all "practice". Bertrand Russell... with his Logica-matematica... that's another one... Dan Brown's father is a mathematician 2! I bet if you get to it, you can create exponentially... y mean you could create a logarithmic function by which... (just joking here...
Any help you can give me is greatly appreciated!! (Especially some suggestions about what to write for #5...)

I read Chileno's answer, I just gave my input, "newly", so as to not make it confusing...
Hope this helps...

[laepelba]

Thanks, both of you! I understand every one of your comments. And although comparisons to Lewis Carroll and Bertrand Russell are inspiring, I still love to live in the world of no-grey-areas.

[JPablo]

You're welcome!

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

1) Mi amiga Anita necesita un disfraz para Halloween. ¿Conocen Uds. una tienda que (vender) venda disfrazes? <-- I used the subjunctive because the store may or may not exist...

OK.
Subjunctive because it is an adjective and "vender disfraces" is the generic quality you are looking for -indicative when you are looking for a particular store having such quality- [That "the store may or may not exist" is a trick students use to guess the right answer during exams, and those tricks will do some 70% or 80%, but ithat's not the way moods work]

Originally Posted by laepelba

2) ¿Quién tiene una cura para la tristeza? Hay un filósofo quien (decir) dice "no te preocupes, sea feliz". <-- I used the indicative because this "philosopher" really did say these words.

"No te preocupes, sé feliz"

Right again: this philosopher really did say that ---> subjunctive pointing to not performed actions and/or non existent things

Hay filósofos que dicen...
No hay filósofos que digan....

Originally Posted by laepelba

3) Marcos busca un jugador de tenis para el equipo de su universidad. ¿Hay alguien que (conocer) conozca que juegue tenis? <-- I used the subjunctive because I don't know if there's someone who knows such a player...

OK again, but some problem with the situation. It makes better sense with "¿Hay alguien que conozcas que juegue tenis?" (Porque Marcos busca ....)

Reason: same as 1), it's an adjective

Originally Posted by laepelba

4) Yo quiero un auto nuevo y barato. No hay un auto nuevo que (ser) es barato. <-- I used the indicative because it is a fact that there is no inexpensive new auto.

Not this time ---> "que sea barato"

Reason: same as 1), reinforced by same as 2)

Originally Posted by laepelba

5) Prefiero vivir en un barrio muy tranquilo. ¿Conoce Ud. un barrio donde (haber) haya .... ??? <-- I couldn't even do this problem, as I had no idea what the question really means with "haber"........ But I used the subjunctive "haya" because such a neighborhood may or may not exist.

"...donde haya tranquilidad" = "tranquilo" ---> subjunctive because -you got it-, it is an adjective!

Originally Posted by laepelba

6) Mi amigo busca un apartamento cerca de un campo de golf. Nosotros alquilamos una casa que (estar) está cerca de un campo de golf. <-- I used the indicative because the renting of such an apartment is going on in present reality.

There's no relation between the first sentence and the second one other than the general situation. Both actions are independent grammatically -the change of subject without subordination marks that-. Both indicative.

Originally Posted by laepelba

These exercises where you have to create your own sentences are SO difficult for me because I am not very creative, and simply don't have the imagination to figure out a way to end a sentence that someone else began............. (I'm so glad I'm a mathematician!!)

It's an excellent type of exercise . Being a mathematician, mood selection and architecture of sentences should be a very interesting topic for you. There are aspects of subjunctive that reminds me i, -1, -i, 1, i, -1, -i, 1, ...

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Subjunctive because it is an adjective and "vender disfraces" is the generic quality you are looking for -indicative when you are looking for a particular store having such quality- [That "the store may or may not exist" is a trick students use to guess the right answer during exams, and those tricks will do some 70% or 80%, but ithat's not the way moods work]

I don't know about "tricks"... That is actually what my workbook says. That not all adjective phrases take the subjunctive, and that if the thing being described by the adjective phrase may or may not exist, then you use the subjunctive.... But you're saying that it's more accurate to say that we use the subjunctive when we're using an adjective phrase to describe something generic? That totally makes sense to me....

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

OK again, but some problem with the situation. It makes better sense with "¿Hay alguien que conozcas que juegue tenis?" (Porque Marcos busca ....)

I like this sentence a lot.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

It's an excellent type of exercise . Being a mathematician, mood selection and architecture of sentences should be a very interesting topic for you. There are aspects of subjunctive that reminds me i, -1, -i, 1, i, -1, -i, 1, ...

Yes, you're right, it IS an interesting topic for me. But I am finding that not every single situation/grammar construction exactly fits in the long list of rules that I don't think I ought to be trying to memorize..... I'm actually trying not to do much memorizing, but am trying to follow concepts .......... so when I can't grasp the concepts, I get frustrated.... i, -1, -i, 1, i, -1, -i, 1, .......

THANKS, Alec!! Are you sure you're not one of my professors from this summer when I studied at the University of Belgrano?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Are you sure you're not one of my professors from this summer when I studied at the University of Belgrano?

Nope, but I'm studying now how Spanish subjunctive works and how to teach it.

Originally Posted by laepelba

I don't know about "tricks"... That is actually what my workbook says. That not all adjective phrases take the subjunctive, and that if the thing being described by the adjective phrase may or may not exist, then you use the subjunctive.... But you're saying that it's more accurate to say that we use the subjunctive when we're using an adjective phrase to describe something generic? That totally makes sense to me....

You have there an important point of this subjunctive business. The text says "not all adjective phrases take the subjunctive, and that if the thing being described by the adjective phrase may or may not exist, then you use the subjunctive...". But I use "adjective" to refer to adjective phrases that work as plain adjectives by conferring some inherent generic quality to the affected noun. Don't let it confuse you because there are many words and some verb -in subjunctive- because it's still a plain adjective.

Then when you are thinking of a generic quality, use subjunctive:

Un auto que sea rojo (Un auto rojo)
Una secretaria que hable español
Alguien que sepa jugar tenis
El vestido que tenga el mayor precio.

In every case, if it ceases to be a generic quality and starts to be the quality that distinguishes that specific noun from other of its "species", then the adjectival phrase uses indicative. Subjunctive livens up to indicative to show that is more than a generic adjective but a discriminative factor.

El auto que es rojo (El auto rojo)
Una secretaria que habla español.
Alguien que sabe jugar tenis.
El vestido que tiene el mayor precio.

This kind of structures, subjunctive the norm, then livening up to indicative, or indicative the norm and dimming to subjunctive are fundamental features of Spanish.

[laepelba]

Hmmmmmmmmm.......... This will take some contemplation for me to fully wrap my arms around. THANKS for the thorough answer, Alec!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Nope, but I'm studying now how Spanish subjunctive works and how to teach it.


Then when you are thinking of a generic quality, use subjunctive:

Una secretaria que hable español

Subjunctive livens up to indicative to show that is more than a generic adjective but a discriminative factor.

Una secretaria que habla español.

This kind of structures, subjunctive the norm, then livening up to indicative, or indicative the norm and dimming to subjunctive are fundamental features of Spanish.

It is interesting that your method of describing the use of the subjunctive is totally different to what is probably a standard way of explaining it in a Spanish grammar book writtten in English. For example, your statement above appears to me to be in direct contradiction to these examples in my grammar book:

Busco un libro que tenga 200 páginas
(I don't know which it will be, but I need one that has 200 pages)
Busco un libro que tiene 200 páginas
(This is a specific book which I know about already. I've lost the book but I can remember that it had 200 pages)

I'm of course not saying that you or my Grammar book are wrong, but the terminology is so different I can't reconcile them. I can't see which of my above books has a generic quality of 200 pages.

[JPablo]

Not totally sure what contradiction you refer exactly, (I may be missing something) but seems to me that the examples Alec gives and yours from your book come to be the same.

Una secretaria que hable español

Subjunctive, we don't know which one will be, but she needs to speak Spanish. (That is "generic" in that, is is not "a specific one", it just has to met that 'qualification'.)

Una secretaria que habla español

Indicative, this is one specific one who speaks Spanish. (This is the 'discriminative' factor, the one that 'specifies'...)

(Probably Alec gets your question better than me, or you can shed some light on whatever is that I am missing here...)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Una secretaria que hable español

Subjunctive, we don't know which one will be, but she needs to speak Spanish. (That is "generic" in that, is is not "a specific one", it just has to met that 'qualification'.)

My confusion is probably due to the word 'generic', because I don't know what it means. Well, actally I do know what it means, it means 'belonging to a large group', general, same. So in this context it must mean "a large group of people who are a subset of secretaries identified by their ability to speak Spanish". This may be clear to a linguist, but from my perspective, in context the word generic is very difficult to interpret.

[JPablo]

I see... well, does that work out for you now?
(Generic, as "non-specific", kind of 'general'...)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Then when you are thinking of a generic quality, use subjunctive:

Una secretaria que hable español

Originally Posted by JPablo

I see... well, does that work out for you now?
(Generic, as "non-specific", kind of 'general'...)

It is clear for me now, but this use of 'generic' needs very careful clarification (at least it does for me). If you talk of a generic quality referring to secretaries, you would automatically understand some quality which all secretaries have (What the hell would that be? ). It is by no means clear that what you mean is 'the quality of a subgroup of secretaries of population greater than one'. I still think that the expression generic is unclear. Your clarification Generic, as "non-specific", kind of 'general' to me makes no sense at all.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

It is clear for me now, but this use of 'generic' needs very careful clarification (at least it does for me). If you talk of a generic quality referring to secretaries, you would automatically understand some quality which all secretaries have (What the hell would that be? ). It is by no means clear that what you mean is 'the quality of a subgroup of secretaries of population greater than one'. I still think that the expression generic is unclear. Your clarification Generic, as "non-specific", kind of 'general' to me makes no sense at all.

When I originally read the explanation using "generic", I took the term to mean "generic secretaries" and not "generic qualities".....

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm of course not saying that you or my Grammar book are wrong, but the terminology is so different I can't reconcile them. I can't see which of my above books has a generic quality of 200 pages.

Busco una casa que tenga 200 metros cuadrados y 5 dormitorios. generic quality

generic?

Hmmm! Thank you all for the comments. I'm trying to explain subjunctive in the most informal way because in my opinion formalities must appear once you understand it, not before. By 'generic' I was thinking in 'prototypical' when you say "un auto que sea rojo" you are taking an image of a generic auto, maybe Herbie, you're also taking the color red and making a red Herbie, the prototypical object you're speaking about.

But when you say "¿Cómo se llamaba el auto de la película que tenía el número 53?" you have Herbie in mind, then indicative: "No cualquier auto que tenga el número 53 sino el de la película" (generic: subjunctive).

I'm not saying that generic or prototypical is the word. Tell me what word conveys the meaning I'm talking about.

[laepelba]

I wonder if "hypothetical" might be a better word? (Perikles?)

There is a hypothetical car, in my imagination it happens to be red. I would like to stumble across a car that suits my fancy... (Use subjunctive?)

On the other hand, there is a red car that is the very car that appeared in the Herbie movie, and I am sure that such a famous car would be way too expensive for me to "collect". (Use indicative?)

Thank you for trying to find informal ways of explaining this to me. It helps! I find that I can handle more of the "formal" explanations when I already have a decent grasp - and then they really help me solidify the grasp. Right now, I would not say that I am ready for "formal".

(PD - I'm in my classroom, finishing my work for the evening, and have Argentine tango music playing in the background. )

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN
Then when you are thinking of a generic quality, use subjunctive:

Una secretaria que hable español

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

By 'generic' I was thinking in 'prototypical' .

Ah ha. Here is the problem, because as I understand it, and as I suspected above, prototypical would definitely mean a quality inherent in all cars, for example 'it's got wheels', something in fact contained in the definition of car. Not just that subset of cars which contains all those which are red. Similarly, a generic quality of secretaries is a quality which they all have, not just that subset of those who speak Spanish.

I still think that using 'generic' or 'prototypical' in this context is thoroughly confusing, or even worse, because it has taken me this far to work out what you mean.

Originally Posted by laepelba

I wonder if "hypothetical" might be a better word? (Perikles?)

Yes, that's a much better word. You have a concept of a secretary who could speak Spanish, a hypothetical one in that subset of Secretaries who speak Spanish.

Not only that, but the subjunctive mood is generally associated with the hypothetical, and it makes sense to me.

[aleCcowaN]

I find "hypothetical" to be quite a dangerous term. "Hypothetical" concepts are managed by conditional and I've seen a lot of fuzzy situations and misunderstanding when it's used to explain Spanish subjunctive. I'm pretty sure that "hypothetical" is an aspect that English speakers have in mind when trying to adapt their native linguistic abilities to deal with Spanish subjunctive, and I think this is part of the problem and not its solution.

Let me see if I can explain what I meant by 'prototypical' and 'generic':

pro·to·type
n.
1. An original type, form, or instance serving as a basis or standard for later stages.
2. An original, full-scale, and usually working model of a new product or new version of an existing product.
3. An early, typical example.
4. Biology A form or species that serves as an original type or example.
proto·typal (-tpl), proto·typic (-tpk), proto·typi·cal (--kl) adj.

ge·ner·ic adj.
1. Relating to or descriptive of an entire group or class; general.
2. Biology Of or relating to a genus.
3. a. Not having a brand name: generic soap.
b. Of or being a drug sold under or identified by its official nonproprietary or chemical name.
4. Grammar Specifying neither masculine nor feminine gender: generic nouns like waitperson and executive.
ge·neri·cal·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

I was thinking in terms of .1. and .3.

.1. would imply some degree of originality that is not the case. I was really thinking in terms of programming: prototype-oriented programming, a rather obscure concept for the layman, but still the way our cerebrums work.

.3. would be more accessible as a concept, as you may think in a generic soap, that is white, lilac scented, etc. but not branded:

-Quiero un jabón que sea blanco y que tenga perfume a lilas.
-Lleve este Palmolive.
-Deme 6.

(dos meses después)
-Quiero ese* jabón que es blanco y que tiene perfume a lilas. Ése* que llevé hace dos meses.
-¿Palmolive, dice Ud.?
-Sí, ése*.


*it's not in sight nor it's being pointed to.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I find "hypothetical" to be quite a dangerous term. "Hypothetical" concepts are managed by conditional and I've seen a lot of fuzzy situations and misunderstanding when it's used to explain Spanish subjunctive. ..

Again, this depends on your understanding of "hypothetical". With my understanding of the word (in English) it covers constructions like:

Prefiero que vengas mañana
En caso de que necesites ayuda, hablaré con él
Siempre que no te quejes, te saco de paseo
Tenga dinero o no, lo va a comprar
Aunque estuviera aquí, no lo hablaría


Of those five, only the last one includes a conditional. I can only understand your claim that the "hypothetical is managed by the conditional" if you restrict the word "hypothetical" to meaning something demonstrably untrue in the present or past. Even then it involves a subjunctive as well as a conditional. With your understanding of "hypothetical", is any future event excluded?

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Let me see if I can explain what I meant by 'prototypical' and 'generic':

-Quiero un jabón que sea blanco y que tenga perfume a lilas.
-Lleve este Palmolive.
-Deme 6.

(dos meses después)
-Quiero ese* jabón que es blanco y que tiene perfume a lilas. Ése* que llevé hace dos meses.
-¿Palmolive, dice Ud.?
-Sí, ése*.


*it's not in sight nor it's being pointed to.

Yes, I understand exactly your definition of 'prototypical' and 'generic', and I also clearly understand the difference in moods between the two instances of buying soap. (Ignoring the irrelevant problem of how you could use 6 bars of Palmolive soap in 2 months,) The interesting part is that I see no connection between the definitions of 'generic' and 'prototypical' and the examples given. I see the indicative used for a specific and known type of soap, and the subjunctive used for an as yet unknown type of soap. There is nothing 'generic' or 'prototypical' about this soap, indeed you have specifed qualities that deny it is generic or prototypical, namely that it also has qualities A and B.