Mientras

[Perikles]

El automóvil los esperaba a la sombra de las bodegas, y no despertaron al chófer dormido sobre el volante mientras no estuvieron instalados en las asientos. (Márquez)

The meaning is clear (so please no translation ), but I've never seen this construction with mientras before. Is it usual, or is it just GGM again? Thanks

[aleCcowaN]

Normal. Maybe not everyday Spanish, at least in my region. "Mientras" is used as a synchronizer, but language forums are plenty of question about it, specially when it's used with verbs in a negative form:

"Y le seguiría gritando mientras insistiera en ignorarla" seems to be less of a problem for advanced Spanish students than "y no lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en sus asientos". Synchronized actions, no-actions or action/no-action ("y no lo despertaron mientras siguieron arreglándoselas bien sin él" are very common.

I bet there's some issue there about how much a no-action lasts compared to the action ("no despertar" versus "despertar") and that English doesn't resort much to such mechanisms, that I have noticed.

[chileno]

My question is:

It isn't ever used in English?

[poli]

The way I see it, it's used all the time, but we use until.
I always use mientras to mean while, so when it means until, it confuses me too. When I read it, I thought it was a Colombianism, but apparently it's used elsewhere.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

It isn't ever used in English?

As Poli says, it's 'normally' while, so a literal translation would be "they did not wake him up while they were not sitting in the seats". I'm not sure whether that is grammatically correct or not, but it is certainly not English.

Anyway, thanks all.

[aleCcowaN]

It looks to me like some dictionaries lack some explanations in between. They insist in giving "while", "as long as" and "until" among other translations. The problem is not about using "while" in that sense but to pinpoint uses of "mientras":

"Mientras" is a synchronizer. Sometimes two things just happen or one of them is conditioned to the other [Tell me if I fail to translate]

Se disculpaba mientras le seguía pegando ---> He apologized as he continued to hit the guy. (simultaneous-same subject-/contradictory)
Su casa se incendió mientras ella estaba de vacaciones ---> Her house burnt while she was on vacation/holidays. (simultaneous/independent)
Tú tienes dos trabajos mientras (que) yo estoy desocupado ---> You have two jobs whereas/while I'm unemployed (simultaneous-different subjects-/contradictory)
Sigue mientras aguantes --->Carry on as long as you resist (simultaneous -same subject- / conditional)
No podemos comenzar mientras no nos den la orden --->We can't start until they say so (simultaneous -different subject- / suspensive condition ---> one action turned into a positive one)
No lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en sus asientos ---> they woke him up once they were comfortably seated (simultaneous -different subject- /no action, suspensive condition ---> turned into positive actions) [Or perhaps "they didn't wake him up until they were comfortably seated"]

The problem, in my opinion, is that "mientras" is not "while" as it is better a hell of a stretch of "during".

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

No lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en sus asientos ---> they woke him up once they were comfortably seated

[Or perhaps "they didn't wake him up until they were comfortably seated"].

Do you see any difference in meaning between "they woke him up once they were comfortably seated" and "they didn't wake him up until they were comfortably seated" ?

In context, I think one is correct and the other not. What do you think?

[poli]

I would have used hasta que, but I'm not GGM

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Do you see any difference in meaning between "they woke him up once they were comfortably seated" and "they didn't wake him up until they were comfortably seated" ?

In context, I think one is correct and the other not. What do you think?

Please, elaborate.

I only can say that I'd feel "they wouldn't wake up him until they were comfortably seated" sounds more real deal English to me, but that is not what GGM is saying. So ...

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Do you see any difference in meaning between A:"they woke him up once they were comfortably seated" and B:"they didn't wake him up until they were comfortably seated" ?

In context, I think one is correct and the other not. What do you think?

I see a difference in context, in that A is more neutral. You might expect the boss to wake the driver up as soon as possible, so B is more surprising because less expected.

Or perhaps I'm just imagining a difference.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I see a difference in context, in that A is more neutral. You might expect the boss to wake the driver up as soon as possible, so B is more surprising because less expected.

Or perhaps I'm just imagining a difference.

Oh, I see what you mean. No-actions are very common in Spanish -starting with the nature of subjunctive itself-, but my developing English brain tells me that "...didn't do until..." looks a little bit as an impending menace. I hope I'm not training the wrong neurons.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

but my developing English brain tells me that "...didn't do until..." looks a little bit as an impending menace. I hope I'm not training the wrong neurons.

It could be, but generally sounds neutral to me.

[Don José]

Originally Posted by poli

I would have used hasta que, but I'm not GGM

So would I, neither being GGM.

[Cloudgazer]

¡¿"Mientras (que)" puede llevar el sentido de "hasta (que)"!? Woah... ¡Qué genial (y confuso)!

@Alec:

¿Quiere decir esto que "mientras" seguida de una no-acción supone que la no-acción tenga que ocurrir en algún momento en el futuro cercano?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Cloudgazer

¿Quiere decir esto que "mientras" seguida de una no-acción supone que la no-acción tenga que ocurrir en algún momento en el futuro cercano?

It has to do with actions that coexist in the same time frame.

No-action coexists with no-action:

"Y no lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en los asientos"

action coexists with action:

"Y seguiría gritándole mientras persistiera en ignorarla"

no-action coexists with action:

"Y no lo despertaron mientras pudieron arreglárselas bien sin él"

action coexists with no-action

"Y siguió con la misma expresión mientras el otro no se disculpó como correspondía"

The problem here is the perception that "despertar" in a quick action -just a point in the time axis- and "instalarse en los asientos" is also a pretty quick action -and presumably a trigger for the other action-. "Hasta que" says that one action is what causes the other, and most of all that both actions have happened or were bound to happen. "Mientras" says that both actions are important and they have their own time frame, though both frames were to entwined. Clearly, a different nuance is conveyed, "hasta que" promotes a mechanical perception of the actions, while "mientras" allows us to picture the before-and-after.

What I can't understand is why somebody may suggest this is something that GGM created or it to be part of his personal style, when it is just educated language common to millions of people.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

What I can't understand is why somebody may suggest this is something that GGM created or it to be part of his personal style, when it is just educated language common to millions of people.

I don't think anyone suggested it's a GGM creation, but I agree it's just educated language.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

What I can't understand is why somebody may suggest this is something that GGM created or it to be part of his personal style, when it is just educated language common to millions of people.

I just asked whether is was 'normal', not having heard it before. If not normal, then it was a possible alternative. I had had earlier queries about expressions written by GGM, with the conclusion that GMM was being inventive, so hardly surprising that this possibility existed here.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

He's inventive with poetic use of language, not with grammar.

[Cloudgazer]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

It has to do with actions that coexist in the same time frame.

No-action coexists with no-action:

"Y no lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en los asientos"

action coexists with action:

"Y seguiría gritándole mientras persistiera en ignorarla"

no-action coexists with action:

"Y no lo despertaron mientras pudieron arreglárselas bien sin él"

action coexists with no-action

"Y siguió con la misma expresión mientras el otro no se disculpó como correspondía"

The problem here is the perception that "despertar" in a quick action -just a point in the time axis- and "instalarse en los asientos" is also a pretty quick action -and presumably a trigger for the other action-. "Hasta que" says that one action is what causes the other, and most of all that both actions have happened or were bound to happen. "Mientras" says that both actions are important and they have their own time frame, though both frames were to entwined. Clearly, a different nuance is conveyed, "hasta que" promotes a mechanical perception of the actions, while "mientras" allows us to picture the before-and-after.

Muchas gracias, Alec.

Entonces, aislada de cualquier contexto, la frase "Y no lo despertaron mientras no estuvieron instalados en los asientos" conduce necesariamente a un sentido donde "mientras no" lleva el matiz de "until", o ¿no?

[aleCcowaN]

The nature of the actions and their coordination make it work as if it means "until", but the way the sentence is laid out suggests the author may have intended to say they avoided to make any noise until the last second and they woke up the driver just for him to perform his duties, or they stretched the period of intimacy by letting the driver asleep (or any of thousand plausible reasons)

If we "draw" a time axis it works about this way: