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ayudar "con" or ayudar "en"

 

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  #1
Old March 13, 2008, 02:06 PM
littlekim70 littlekim70 is offline
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Question ayudar "con" or ayudar "en"

Does anyone know whether the word for the blank is "con" or "en". What's the difference? Thank you!

Diversas investigaciones han indicado que el chocolate contiene sustancias químicas que ayudan ___ la prevención de enfermedades del corazón y hasta algunos tipos de cáncer
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  #2
Old March 13, 2008, 02:37 PM
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con = with
en = in

I'd say:

el chocolate ayuda con ....
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Old March 13, 2008, 05:56 PM
littlekim70 littlekim70 is offline
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I said "con" & so did my friend. The AP book has the answer as "en". Usually, if more than one answer is acceptable the book will show all possibilities.

The other Spanish teachers and I don't know how to explain it to the Spanish speakers, & we can't find any grammar description in any books or dictionary.

Any ideas?
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  #4
Old March 13, 2008, 06:16 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Es verdad que lo que suena menos forzado es ayudar con la prevención. Pero creo que son preferibles otras opciones. Por ejemplo: el chocolate ayuda a prevenir las enfermedades...

El verbo ayudar rige doblemente la preposición a: ayudar a alguien a hacer algo.

También, para expresar el instrumento de la ayuda, puedo ayudar con mi esfuerzo, con mi dinero, con mi tiempo, con mi interés.

O, para expresar el motivo final de la ayuda, te puedo ayudar con los deberes, con tu trabajo, con tus problemas.

Éste caso es el más parecido a el chocolate ayuda con la prevención. Pero hay otras opciones más sencillas.

Espero no liarte mucho. Es que el dilema me ha hecho pensar.
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  #5
Old March 13, 2008, 06:37 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Hi, little Kim, I didn't see your last message before writing my last one.
I think AP book is wrong. But it's really hard to prove it.
Anyway, DPD is against me and against you.
You can check ayudar at: http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/
You will find that, among others, there are two uses of this verb, one with con, another one with en. So, according to this, both will be OK. The question is who uses that and where.
The point is dialectal differences.
So, what I understand is that AP book shouldn't deny one of the possibilities. Even it shouldn't make you think you have to choose one between two. But that's another story.
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  #6
Old March 13, 2008, 07:41 PM
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Little Kim what's the book's name/author or ISBN? I'd love to take a look at it.

With things like this, I tend to refer people to the difference between linguistic prescriptivism and descriptivism. Prescriptivism tries to define and give advice concerning language usage. Descriptivism seeks to observe and document how language is actually used in practice. That's one reason I'm not a big fan of the RAE.
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  #7
Old March 13, 2008, 10:01 PM
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In this case the phrase translates directly from Spanish to English. Helps with the prevention of.. Helps in the prevention of... or as Alfonso suggests, helps prevent..
Personally, I think Alfonso's choice is the most streamlined. Why use a confusing prepositition when it isn't needed?

Last edited by poli; March 14, 2008 at 05:33 AM.
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  #8
Old March 14, 2008, 02:40 AM
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surprisingly enough, I'm with "en". I simply made it without thinking.


my option
Quote:
Diversas investigaciones han indicado que el chocolate contiene sustancias químicas que ayudan en la prevención de enfermedades del corazón y hasta algunos tipos de cáncer
I would better use "a" + infinitive
"...... contiene sustancias químicas que ayudan a prevenir enfermedades .."

Diversas investigaciones han indicado que el chocolate contiene sustancias químicas que ayudan en la prevención de enfermedades del corazón y hasta algunos tipos de cáncer
core: La sustancias ayudan en la prevención de enfermedades.
It's direct use (1, see below) and then "en"or "a"


«Un psiquiatra [...] puede definir el perfil del asesino y ayudar a su captura» YES
«Un psiquiatra [...] puede definir el perfil del asesino y ayudar en su captura» YES
«Un psiquiatra [...] puede definir el perfil del asesino y ayudar con su captura» NO

I have send a question to an expert (Mr Justo Fernández owner from hispanoteca). And heres the answer --> "A" (but my "en" is also OK
Quote:
AYUDAR en el sentido de ‘ofrecer ayuda a alguien’ es un verbo transitivo que lleva complemento directo de persona y complemento preposicional con la
preposición A (si le sigue un infinitivo) o con A o EN si le sigue un
sustantivo:
-Lo ayudó a vestirse.
-Estas medidas ayudarán a controlar la inflación.
-El detective privado ayudó a la policía a la captura del asesino.
-El chocolate contiene sustancias químicas que ayudan a la prevención de
enfermedades del corazón y hasta algunos tipos de cáncer.

-En los preparativos del viaje lo ayudaba siempre su secretaria.
-Intentaremos ayudarte en todo lo que podamos.

Con la preposición CON solamente se puede emplear el verbo AYUDAR cuando tiene el sentido de ‘valerse de alguien o algo como ayuda’. En este caso es un verbo intransitivo pronominal y se construye con un complemento introducido por DE o CON:
-Cojeaba un poco al caminar y tenía que ayudarse con un bastón.
-Para hacer la traducción se ayudaba con varios diccionarios.
-Era analfabeto y se ayudaba con sus dedos para realizar operaciones básicas como sumar y restar.
-En la toma de decisiones políticas se ayudaba de una especie de consejo de
Estado.
-El conferenciante se ayudaba de dibujos o esquemas que proyectaba en una gran pantalla para explicar su tema.
-Se ayudó de sus buenas amistades para conseguir el puesto.
«ayudar(se).
1. Cuando significa ‘ofrecer ayuda a alguien’, se ha generalizado su uso como
transitivo en gran parte del dominio hispanohablante. Además del complemento
directo de persona, suele llevar un complemento con a, si lo que sigue es un
infinitivo, o con a o en si lo que sigue es un sustantivo: «Alguien LO ayudó A
incorporarse» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]); «Un psiquiatra [...] puede definir
el perfil del asesino y ayudar A su captura» (LpzNavarro Clásicos [Chile
1996]); «Tenía perros amaestrados que LO ayudaban EN sus fechorías» (Villoro
Noche [Méx. 1980]). Es incorrecto omitir la preposición: *«Ayudaron revitalizar
el teatro chileno» (Hoy [Chile] 7-13.1.81). En ciertas zonas no leístas, sin
embargo, se mantiene su uso como intransitivo, conservando el dativo con que se
construía en latín (lat. adiutare): «Su hijo Leoncio LE ayuda [a ella] a vivir»
(Hoy [El Salv.] 30.1.97).
2. Con el sentido de ‘valerse [de alguien o algo] como ayuda’, es intransitivo
pronominal y se construye con un complemento introducido por de o con:
«Navegaba por el centro del río, ayudándose DE una larga pértiga» (Torbado
Peregrino [Esp. 1993]); «No se ayudaba CON ningún bastón» (Montero Trenza [Cuba
1987]).»
[RAE: Diccionario panhispánico de dudas. Madrid: Santillana, 2005, p. 79]
Thanks to Mr Justo Fernández for this information. There is also a thread where explains ayudar + "la\le"
http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/Ayudar%20a.htm



@ Poli, I have modified it later to make it clearer, but the meaning it's the same


saludos
PD: I have holidays next week (15-24)

Last edited by sosia; March 14, 2008 at 05:55 AM.
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  #9
Old March 14, 2008, 05:46 AM
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Sosia,
Ahora entiendo: Una persona ayuda con, pero una cosa (como cocoa) ayuda en.
¡Que disfrute sus vacacciónes!

Poli
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  #10
Old March 14, 2008, 01:05 PM
littlekim70 littlekim70 is offline
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Wow!!!

Thank you all so much for all your help & investigating. My students are also grateful. We just hope that this book is no indication as to how tricky the actual AP test will be.

I don't get a vacation until April 7..., but that's ok...I still get one

I hope all of you enjoy your vacations.
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  #11
Old March 16, 2008, 06:56 AM
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Sorry to but in on this conversation, but I was just curious what AP stands for.
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  #12
Old March 16, 2008, 12:37 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Sosia,
Ahora entiendo: Una persona ayuda con, pero una cosa (como el cacao) ayuda en.
I'm sorry Poli you are not right. In Spanish the subject never determines the preposition after the verb.
It's the verb itself and the object what determine the preposition. I think English and Spanish are not very far apart on this.
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Last edited by Alfonso; March 17, 2008 at 04:53 AM. Reason: Some corrections thanks to Poli
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  #13
Old March 16, 2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
I'm sorry Poli you are not right. In Spanish the subject never determines the preposition after the verb.
It's the verb itself and the object what determine the preposition. I think English and Spanish are not very far on this.
Alfonso,
Si haya una regla que la preposción está determinado por el verbo y el objecto, en el caso de ayudar en y ayudar con, me parece que la regla cambie. Lola ayudó a su hermano con su tarea. Vitamina C ayuda
en la prevención del escorbuto.
In English, a person helps with, and an object or product helps in. I think
Spanish works the same in this case.
Avísame si hice errores.

In the above quote you wrote," English and Spanish are not very far on this". You should say, English abd Spanish are not very far apart on this

Saludos

Poli
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  #14
Old March 17, 2008, 05:20 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Thanks a lot Poli for your correction and your information.

I will think about what you say, although it's really hard for me to admit that, either in Spanish or in English, the subject can determine the preposition. Anyway, I will think about some phrases and I will check it. Let me some time to find it out.

I guess what you want to say is:

Si hay una regla según la cual la preposición está determinada por el verbo y por el objeto, en el caso de ayudar en y ayudar con, me parece que la regla cambia.

You can also say the same this way:

Creo que esta regla no es válida para los casos de ayudar en y ayudar con.

I'm considering it seriously. But you are changing one of the principles of structuralism studies.

Let's see what happens.

Corrections are welcomed
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Last edited by Alfonso; March 17, 2008 at 05:22 AM. Reason: non-importance correction: italics
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